The fact that Logan and I have different approaches to woodworking, shop space, and interests is what makes these kinds of conversations fun for me.
Transcript
All the blabbing, as text.
Phil Huber (00:08.13) Hey everybody, it's the ShopNotes Podcast. Episode number 266 today. It's Logan and Phil answering, going a deep dive into the mailbag and into the customer, listener, viewer comments. And then whatever else happens from there. That's what we got. John Doyle, still on assignment. I don't know what kind of Mickey Mouse assignment he thinks that he's on, but we expect him back for the next episode.
Just a thank you to all the subscribers to Woodsmith and Popular Woodworking Magazines and all the membership members out there for Popwood Plus, Woodsmith Unlimited that make this possible. We're gonna just jump right in and get started. We had a special guest last week, Jamie Harpster, and because of that didn't go through some comments from the previous episode.
So I'm gonna duck back into episode 264 and just kind of catch us up, see where we go from there.
Buckle up. Paul says, hey guys, long time listener. From the beginning, found myself several months behind listening to episodes, discovered the playback speed setting on YouTube, quite listenable at 1.5 times the speed. Sometimes I would listen at up to 1.8 times the speed. Helped me get caught up quickly, although Logan can be difficult to understand sometimes at the higher speeds.
Logan Wittmer (01:44.428) Yeah, yeah, you don't speed this up.
Phil Huber (01:49.677) Right. I don't know if that's, I don't know how to respond to that. It feels like Han Solo talking about the Millennium Falcon making 0.5 beyond light speed.
Logan Wittmer (02:00.297) Yeah, that's funny. It's funny because like along those lines, I've been watching this comedian lately. There's a pair of comedians that one of them has cerebral palsy and the girl she's in a wheelchair. I don't remember what she has, but it's like a degenerative disease. and she, mean, like part of her stick is she's making fun of herself and, and whatever, but all the comments are like, if you listen to this in two times speed, like
Doesn't sound like she has any form of disability in. Like, my god, it's true. I can just imagine trying to put myself on two times speed. Yuck.
Phil Huber (02:35.331) Yeah. As you drink coffee.
Logan Wittmer (02:39.177) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (02:40.655) DP Meyer says, I use mineral spirits in my sleep apnea mask cleaning machine. So sleepy. Just a warning. We do not advocate that.
Logan Wittmer (02:46.986) Hehehehehe
Logan Wittmer (02:52.838) No, don't use mineral spirits, use the natured alcohol.
Phil Huber (02:54.543) Right. Harold McDonald says, I think my debate with Stephen over Phil Sawhorse video needs to be discussed on the podcast.
Logan Wittmer (03:03.37) I gotta dive into this comment real quick to see what's going on.
Phil Huber (03:08.151) Right. All right. Well, while Logan catches up, I'm just going to keep going. Alphito158 says, more music trivia. Philbert mentioned his project looking like a Viking drinking mug. Did you know that the music in the Mortal Kombat video game? I know where this is going. Was based on a Scandinavian fighting anthem.
Logan Wittmer (03:29.416) What?
Phil Huber (03:30.605) Yeah, that's right. They used a Finnish Hymn.
Logan Wittmer (03:35.355) That is fantastic.
Phil Huber (03:41.808) Harold bouncing back says, based on the spring discussion, I've decided that I must build a spray booth. I'm thinking a 20 by 20 foot room in the corner of the shop. This is purely to stick it to Logan since he doesn't have one. With every bug that lands in your finish this summer, I want you to think of me.
And then he also wanted to reiterate that that episode 264 was not sauna length.
Logan Wittmer (04:07.634) Mmm, sorry Harold. Alright, I just caught up on the drama on the sawhorse video. I love it.
Phil Huber (04:09.197) Right. Yep.
Phil Huber (04:15.023) Mm hmm. Yep. If you haven't seen it, I made a I talked about it on the podcast here several times a version of our stacking saw horses that we have here. They're really cool. I it's an ideal size for assembly because they're low, but you could stack them and get a larger size, taller working height.
Logan Wittmer (04:39.131) weird.
Phil Huber (04:45.163) several layers. I made one that was basically a double thickness on the ends and then had a two inch thick oak top and was just using it for some carving last week and was pretty dang impressed by how stout it was. So I did a video on how I made it in my shop. So after the shop tour videos I wanted to start doing some project building and technique things. So I showed that
Couple of the techniques I had, I was using my router table and where I had the router table positioned compared to the camera, you had this big spray of dust and was called out for not wearing a dust mask. And it's legit, I wasn't. But thankfully Harold came to my defense. So I'll leave it to that for you to catch up with those.
Bonnie board wood shop says, as an avid Turner, I agree with Logan to find a local club. I feel like it depends on the project you want to do to determine what tools to get. That's true. I mean, you and you were definitely going based on.
you prefer, how would you describe it, vessel turning compared to spindle turning?
Logan Wittmer (06:08.515) Yeah, for sure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I prefer face plate turning for those of us in the know it's called face plate turning Phil. I prefer face plate turning which is generally bowl gouges hollowing tools stuff like that versus a spindle roughing gouge and a spindle gouge and that type of stuff. So yeah.
Phil Huber (06:15.981) All right, my bad.
Phil Huber (06:30.703) Smooth Turning says the American Association of Woodturners, the A.A.W., will have a list of clubs. One more item for the tool list, Face Shield.
Logan Wittmer (06:38.255) Mm-hmm.
Logan Wittmer (06:44.548) I mean, let's ask Harold and Steve about this. Um, speaking of turning, just because we're on that subject quick, had to get a little bit of a, uh, uh, mental health time for myself over this, for the last couple of weeks. So speaking of turning that is a.
Phil Huber (06:48.323) Hahaha!
Logan Wittmer (07:04.982) cherry burl that a buddy of mine had growing in his timber and he texted me a picture of it was like, hey, what would this look like in the inside? said, that'd be really cool. But like, don't kill the living tree to get it. He's like, too late. So he just chainsaws the cherry tree down and he brought me this cherry burl. I don't know, maybe 18 inches in diameter with, you know, three or four inches of logs sticking off each side.
And I told him and his wife that I would make them a bowl out of it. So there's one sitting on the workbench drying right now. But yeah, so like I, and I have half the burl left.
Phil Huber (07:42.62) so you got two items out of that one.
okay.
Logan Wittmer (07:46.869) So yeah, yeah. I actually, so all the offcuts, is, I don't remember the orientation that this was sitting in the log. think that, I mean, obviously with the bark is on the outside. So I think the end grain was like in this area.
It was just a big square block that was coming out like tangentially from the log. I had a bunch of offcuts too, so I sealed those with wax for like duck calls and stuff, but I freaking, I love doing like hollow forms and little vases. This is 100 % unashamed inspired by Richard Raffin, his little pots he does. And it's super cool because it's turned oval already, almost, almost triangular because it was absolutely
Absolutely, I love doing those things.
Phil Huber (08:39.097) All right, so let's dive. We'll veer a little bit related to turning.
Logan Wittmer (08:45.161) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (08:48.865) into timber. Basically any tree can develop a burl, right?
Logan Wittmer (08:57.441) Yes, there are trees, there are species that are more susceptible to it. there is, there's very little known, it's the MDFL. There's very little known about certain things that cause growths in trees.
Curl is caused by compression. So that is generally caused by the weight of branches, stuff like that, causing the fibers to turn into a slinky kind of. But there are things like bird's eye maple. Nobody really knows exactly what bird's eye maple is caused by. Burls are another one of those. Like people don't really know exactly what causes a tree to develop a burl.
I'm talking a true burl. A lot of the times people are like, my tree has this big burl on the side. And you can tell very clearly that it is a limb that has been removed and has grown over. That is not a burl. Burls generally will have alligator type looking skin on it, almost scales. In Iowa, our trees that get burls on them are elm and cherry and oak.
Phil Huber (10:06.307) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (10:26.003) both red oaks and white oaks, mainly burr oaks. In the Northwest, that's where some of the best burl, in my opinion, comes from. And those we're talking about big leaf maple burl, generally. It's a fast growing maple. They also get cottonwood burl out that way, which we do not get. If I spin my camera, that is a cottonwood burl right there.
Phil Huber (10:53.25) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (10:53.695) That is a, I don't know, Philippine burl. That top one is a duck butt. That is a big leaf maple burl on top. So like there are certain things, or certain trees that are definitely more prone to it. You will hear theories on it. Nothing's actually ever been proven.
Generally, they'll say, it's more prone if they grow in super wet areas and it's a fungus that causes an infection in the tree and the tree's trying to fight it by growing around it. Like, nobody really knows.
But it is very cool. can have some. Burl is like a box of chocolates. You never really know what you're gonna get. Are you gonna get the nasty one that has a gooey cherry inside or are gonna get the nice hazelnut cream? I don't know. Some of them are hollow, some of them aren't. Some of have a boatload of figures, some of them don't. It just kind of depends.
We have also seen from Iowa a locust. Locust does burl, the more common one around here is hedge, Osage orange burl. That will also burl, but those trees aren't really harvested very often. yeah.
Phil Huber (12:02.841) Okay.
Phil Huber (12:20.335) Tim Passmore says, is there a direct correlation between Logan losing connection and this week's podcast being short and sweet? That would be really fun to be able to blame Logan on that. And while we have had technical difficulties that have impaired our ability to do podcasts from time to time, in spite of the fact that we're six years into this.
Logan Wittmer (12:42.46) You
Phil Huber (12:44.887) Most of the time our podcasting schedule comes in between other stuff. it was like, I think Logan either was going to the airport or coming back from somewhere. John and kids, that's right. Or meetings, so we like cram in meetings.
Logan Wittmer (12:56.23) It was John and kids. That's what it was. That's what it was. Yeah. John had, yeah. Yeah. We have this thing called a day job that takes precedence over our podcasting and our videos recording, which also is not our day job. Thank you very much.
Phil Huber (13:06.5) Right.
Logan Wittmer (13:17.531) It's for you, Rob.
Phil Huber (13:18.255) Larry Nelson says, first, I would like to say that I enjoy the podcast. I've heard it from the beginning. I have to disagree with Logan's suggestions on starting out with a lathe. I recommend that she starts out taking a pen turning class. She should start out with a small lathe with a carbide tool set. She could start on the pens, also turn small bowls, spindles, ornaments. Getting wood for small projects is easier to purchase. If she enjoys the work, she can slowly invest.
further in the art, start out slow first. This is why people of all ages start this way first and pen turning has been so popular.
Logan Wittmer (13:55.884) I don't disagree with the pen turning and it makes something functional. I will argue against the carbide tools right away, just with anybody. Like I will argue with my dead grandmother on this because here's my mentality and I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong. But I feel like if you give somebody a carbide tool, they are going to, that's gonna be their safety mechanism, always.
and they will always try to default back to that because it is a set the tool rest so that cuts on the center height and push it into the wood rather than learning proper sharpening and learning high speed steel tools. I feel like you should learn those first before you figure out where carbide tools are required because there are instances where I carbide tools make a lot of sense. I have set.
I don't use them very often, there are certain things I use them for. So I feel like if you give somebody that easy path, they will always default to the easy path.
Logan Wittmer (15:03.863) Which is fine, but...
I think there's a deeper, like with high speed steel tools, cutting tools, traditional cutting tools, I feel like it requires you to understand the material, grain direction and everything a little bit better and sharpening a little bit better than using a carbide tool. So inherently, I think starting with those, it will make you a better woodworker. Can you see my cat doing parkour in the background?
Phil Huber (15:34.957) Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that because Goose has been up on his perch there a couple of times and then he's kind of super cat it is way across the screen several in several directions. Yep.
Logan Wittmer (15:44.351) Yeah, must be the zoomies. But no, I will, that is my opinion on carbide tools. They have a place, there is a reason for them, I have a set. But I don't think you should teach somebody on them because I feel like they will always default to that and then there is an intimate knowledge that they should gain that they will never feel the need to gain.
Phil Huber (16:10.849) Okay, I can see that.
Logan Wittmer (16:14.324) Let's throw hands, whoever that was.
Phil Huber (16:18.575) Puppy doc Bob says for some reason the thought of a Viking drinking tankard made from honeysuckle seems less manly than boxwood or oak.
Logan Wittmer (16:29.982) You're not wrong. Also, oop, good.
Phil Huber (16:31.375) So, Phil, you can keep your man card for not making a Viking drinking tankard. For what it's worth, I may have acquired a sample of said rare honeysuckle and I theoretically would have cut it into 12 inches length and sealed all the ends with wax. Since this is all hypothetical, I may be fighting the urge to start working with any of it and wanting to let it dry a good while.
The million dollar question is what constitutes a good while.
Logan Wittmer (17:06.037) So Bob, think you'll find, and Phil and I found this is, even if it's sealed, it will crack probably. I had pieces that I had sealed and it cracked. Bob sent me a good one-liner today from, isn't today St. Patrick's Day? Why did the leprechaun pick up a lathe? To turn his luck around.
Phil Huber (17:20.686) Yeah.
Phil Huber (17:27.193) Yes.
Phil Huber (17:31.055) What is that?
Logan Wittmer (17:36.957) I know, that's the exact reaction I gave Bob when he sent me that.
Phil Huber (17:42.799) I found that when I shaped the pieces that I had, even though they were wet,
They dried out very quickly in just a couple of weeks when I did the shrink pots and they went from being...
Logan Wittmer (17:57.428) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (18:04.771) green wood, but still on the harder end of working to totally rock hard, you need like metal etching tools to deal with it.
Logan Wittmer (18:19.23) Yep, carbide cutting tools on the lathe.
Phil Huber (18:20.633) Kind of crazy.
Logan Wittmer (18:25.46) It has to have a ton of free water in it. And I don't know what the cell structure of honeysuckle is. I don't think any university has ever done a study on the cell structure of honeysuckle. But whatever it is, that stuff gets freaking hard. I wonder. So I don't know if I've mentioned this or not on the podcast, although it kind of seems like this would be a great idea for it.
Phil Huber (18:35.545) Right.
Logan Wittmer (18:51.828) I've talked about wanting to turn pipes before. I'm a big pipe guy. I have a small collection here. Most of them are briar pipes. You can make pipes out of olive wood, which I did not know. That's a pretty common thing. A lot of people make them out of fruit wood. So there's like, you got these high end pipes that come from like London or...
Italy stuff like that But people have always made pipes, right? So like a lot of people will make them out of apple or cherry or pear wood or whatever But I guess olives pretty popular one. I wonder what a honeysuckle pipe would be like because it's super dense. I Don't know would it be nasty maybe Like would it be nasty to smoke out of I guess is the is the question where like
Phil Huber (19:28.853) yep.
Phil Huber (19:36.868) Yeah.
Right. Yeah, that I have no idea.
Logan Wittmer (19:42.726) where like Briar and Cherry and stuff's all very nice. That would be interesting though. I have not thought about that. It would be the ugliest pipe in my pipe rack, but, cause it's just white. Like there's nothing there.
Phil Huber (19:54.595) Yeah, but it-
Phil Huber (19:58.8) true.
Logan Wittmer (19:59.087) I'm picturing it to be like corn cob pipe style, like where it's like just cream colored and that's it. I don't know.
Phil Huber (20:05.775) Yeah, I mean it might pick up colors from during the smoking process. yeah. Trial Life Woodworking says, regarding Logan's mention of tendonitis when using F-clamps, have you seen Rob Cosman's tip on using hockey tape for clamp handles? He found it to be a game changer. What I found is that it's the small slippery handle that creates the pain.
Logan Wittmer (20:09.873) Bye.
It could.
Phil Huber (20:31.841) liberal amount of hockey tape significantly increases the handle, thickness of the handle to grip as well as the tape itself being grippy. He's got a handle, he's got, Rob Cosman has a video on doing that. He's wrapped, Tree of Life has wrapped every clamp that he owns.
Logan Wittmer (20:47.985) Yep.
I have seen people do the hockey tape thing. Obviously makes sense with Rob being Canadian. Like of course he defaults to either hockey tape or maple syrup to get a little bit better grip on it. One of those two. I've also seen people, hell, mean, it's kind of hockey grip tape. I've seen a lot of people just use athletic tape. You wrap the athletic tape around and then if you twist athletic tape into a cord, you can kind of do some whips around the handle and then tape over it. So it has a little texture to it.
So yeah, yeah, I definitely see that. I still, don't know if I mentioned it or not. I still am a huge fan. I think Bessie also has them now, but Woodpecker's parallel clamps, the handle pulls out and turns 90 degrees so you can like leverage instead of twist. Yeah. so good.
Phil Huber (21:35.31) so it's like a Tommy bar kind of, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (21:41.968) know, drill, a quarter inch drill bit and a number two Phillips screwdriver does the same thing, but.
Phil Huber (21:48.355) Right, but not as cool.
Logan Wittmer (21:50.552) That is cool.
Phil Huber (21:54.788) All right, we had another comment there about a customer service question, but it looks like Harold and Bob took care of that one for us. If you have any customer service questions, you can check the Woodsmith website and they will get back to you. All right, last week's episode, Jamie Harpster was just a couple of quick ones. Kotril Toolwork says, great show about a great mission. Jamie chimes in, thanks for having me on. It was fun. And DP Meyer says, good show.
Logan Wittmer (22:02.969) Yeah.
Phil Huber (22:26.763) All right, as always, we thrive on questions, comments, and smart remarks here for the Shop Notes podcast. It's the fuel that keeps us burning, because sometimes you just got to do stuff out of just rage and reaction.
Phil Huber (22:46.457) There you go. You can send those comments in either on our email, woodsmith at woodsmith.com or do what everybody else does and subscribe to the podcast over on the podcast YouTube channel, Shop Notes Podcast and log in your questions and comments there.
So from that, let's dive into some updates. We haven't heard anything on the outfeed table in a while.
Logan Wittmer (23:17.537) Yeah, I haven't been home for a while to work on it. So yeah, when I left, had all the rails, legs cut, panels I had started to cut. What I had originally waited on was when I did the workbench, which has the same raised panel design, the raised panel is a picture, a 45 degree chamfer around the entire edge with a tongue on it.
Phil Huber (23:20.761) Right.
Logan Wittmer (23:44.82) So it's a 45 degree raised panel. Great look, I love the look of it. And the way I did those was I cut a rabbet at the shaper and then I put a 90 degree V bit in the shaper and ran that to chamfer that edge. Works good, just multiple setups.
And I had thought about this and I really liked the style building out feed table to match the workbench. I'm going to start working on a tool cabinet for behind the bench at some point soon. I'm going to do the same thing. So I found a company on the West coast of California that sells a 45 degree chamfer raised panel bit for the router table. So I was waiting on that as long as we're sure it's just waiting on this router bit. And
Phil Huber (24:27.21) okay.
Logan Wittmer (24:32.969) Got it in a couple weeks ago. Works beautiful on these panels. Like I'm just doing MDF panels because this thing's painted. So picked it back up this week. Last week I was busy getting an issue out to the printer and some filming and stuff. So picked it back up yesterday. Today's what? Tuesday? Picked it back up yesterday. Cut panels the wrong size because I forgot where I was at. Remember that podcast we talked about writing down where you are in a project? Hmm. That one bit me in the butt.
So I ended up cutting, I double cut panels. So like I needed panels at 18 by 20. I cut four of them and I only needed two, which is fine. I was able to cut one of them down to use on another end. And then actually the other one I'll be able to use. So I didn't waste any material really. So I'm getting to the point. have the three vents glued up. Now I'm to the point where I can start gluing up the...
cross rails, I guess, for the front and backs. I did, I've never, I've never Googled, oh man, if you look at my Google history, there are things that many people have never Googled before. I Googled how long of drawer slides can you buy? I didn't know they made 78 inch drawer slides, which sounds fantastic, but think about all the people that are building built-ins into their truck beds.
Phil Huber (25:48.483) Holy crap.
Phil Huber (25:55.424) yeah.
Logan Wittmer (25:56.593) Like it makes sense that the people are like starting to do that or like under like an under bed drawer. That'd be sweet. Have it on ball bearing slides. I needed 36 inch drawer slides because as you're standing at the back of the outfeed table,
Phil Huber (26:02.991) Sure. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (26:15.217) you have a bank of drawers on the right and on the left you have a door that opens up. Well, that cubby is 36 inches deep and only like 14 inches wide. So it's not big by any means. So it's like, how are you gonna store it? Like, what are you gonna store in there?
So I'm gonna do two pullout drawers, kind of like I've built into my mire saw station, where you open the doors and then these drawers just pull straight out, giving you access to the full depth. So $175 drawer slides later for two pairs. Yeah, so we're gonna put those in. I'm at the point where I'm getting ready to start gluing up the actual full assembly, but I'm kind of like, I, this is always the...
Phil Huber (26:45.039) Cool.
Logan Wittmer (27:01.576) You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Like, do you pre-paint everything while it's apart and then glue it together, knowing you touched some stuff up? Do you glue it together and then you're just like playing the weird, like, I'm reaching inside of stuff to spray it, which is probably what I'm going to do. So, at the point where I'm probably just gonna glue the entire thing together, then bring it in the spray booth, put it on a table and spray the crap out of it. So, white shellac-based primer, and then I think I'm gonna do the same.
I like, I love the color that I painted the saw till, which was a linseed paint. It was green from Albach. However, painting this entire outfit table with linseed paint sounds miserable. So I'm probably, that's right. Yeah, it would take forever. So I will probably.
Phil Huber (27:46.521) Right. It'll also be until October before it's dry.
Logan Wittmer (27:55.824) find some form of latex paint or oil-based paint that I can spray on that is the same color, know, something off the shelf maybe. But I kind of have that shop aesthetic of muted greens, muted blues type thing going on, so yeah.
We're getting there. getting there. The top is going to be a completely separate thing. am, I don't know if I mentioned this or not, I am going to do a torsion box top on it. So for two reasons, first, it's going to stay flat. But the second reason being that it allows me to do an article completely on torsion boxes, like torsion box assembly, construction methods, how to cut them, that type of stuff. yep.
Phil Huber (28:42.127) Okay. How thick of a torsion box top then? Because sometimes I see those and they're like eight inches thick and it just feels like it's ridiculous.
Logan Wittmer (28:46.182) I would.
Yeah, that seems, yeah, it seems overkill. I would have to go measure. I want to say it's like four inches. No, so I figure half inch, half inch, and then three inch webbing is kind of my thought. And that's gonna give me enough heft that it'll stay flat.
Phil Huber (28:58.675) that's not too bad.
Logan Wittmer (29:12.919) I may do, I haven't decided, I may do some threaded inserts in the top two or T-nuts from the bottom. So like I could clamp fixtures and stuff on there. I'm thinking like right now, like bench pilot sitting on that feed table. Like technically you're supposed to clamp or screw bench pilot down, but it's like, if I could just put threaded knobs in there and just hold it down with hold downs, you know, that'd be way better. So may do that.
Phil Huber (29:20.344) Okay.
Phil Huber (29:35.619) Right. Yeah. Okay. That's what I was going to wonder because the other, the top that you have on there now has like T slots in it, right? Or.
Logan Wittmer (29:45.764) It has, yeah, it has the match fit slots from Microjig. And I really like them. And after being down at Microjig for this photo shoot two weeks ago, I'm like, oh yeah, like, like I like seeing how Ralph uses them. Like it makes complete sense. The clamps work really well. They don't work well when you have an MDF top that has sagged three quarters of an inch over four and a half feet.
Phil Huber (29:49.241) Right.
Logan Wittmer (30:13.25) because then everything pinches and stuff. So I don't know that I will do that again, maybe not on the top. I might do that on the edging so you have some vertical work holding, which they had on theirs and it worked really, really nicely.
Phil Huber (30:25.417) okay. That'd be cool.
Phil Huber (30:31.683) Yeah, kind of like an unlimited width, Mox and Vice.
Logan Wittmer (30:36.257) Yeah, kind of. Yeah. I also had considered this. And I haven't I haven't come across like I haven't, I haven't decided this yet. I have in the storage in my shop, I grabbed our cabinets that we had in our work in our shop there in the office. The uppers and lowers, the lowers had a really cool extendable front on them.
so you could grab it and pull it out and it just kind of expanded the work surface from like a foot and a half to like three feet or three and a half feet. I thought it would be really nice to be able to do the same thing on this.
and have the front edge of the outfeed table extend out. Not necessarily to extend the work surface, but more to offer me a place where I could run the track saw down without cutting into something. So it kind of becomes a pseudo cut table, but not really.
Phil Huber (31:35.777) okay.
Logan Wittmer (31:42.791) I know, I haven't decided. I don't remember. I have an idea of how I would want to put that system together. I don't know how these ones out there were done. But I think you could do some black pipe with some maybe like PFTE bushing blocks in there to slide it in and out. Keep the sag down. I don't know. That's to be determined. That will be a game time decision. So, yeah.
Phil Huber (31:59.276) yeah.
Phil Huber (32:12.761) just how complex you want to make it.
Logan Wittmer (32:15.06) I know, right?
Phil Huber (32:18.371) I usually end up veering way too complex on stuff.
Logan Wittmer (32:22.657) I I'm trying to avoid that. Mainly because I don't want to model it in Sketchup.
Phil Huber (32:26.447) Right.
Phil Huber (32:32.385) And it already delays the build slash photos and all the stuff that goes with it.
Logan Wittmer (32:37.748) Yeah. Yeah. And trying to create, so technically I am on week number one of my eight week magazine cycle. got a trip to Albany, New York. So if anybody is speaking of which, if anybody is going to be going to the, was it Northeastern Woodworkers Association meetup that they have, next week and a half, I will be there presenting. So that'd be cool. and we will have a booth there.
So like I'm trying to fit this stuff around those types of trips. So yeah, it may be a, know, if depending on how you build the torsion box, like you could make it so the tops removable. And if that's the case, then I can just add that at a later date if I wanted to. So.
Phil Huber (33:24.412) Phil Huber (33:32.015) What's up, Goose?
Alright, speaking of appearances, I'm going to be presenting at the Iowa City Woodcraft for the Eastern Iowa... Can't think of their name now. Woodworkers Club. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (33:45.927) Is it the Cedar Valley? Yeah. Is it the Cedar Valley woodworkers?
Phil Huber (33:51.864) Right. In... Yeah. Woodcraft in Iowa City in April. Basically a month from when we're recording this. April 16th. You could check it out.
primarily for club members, but I'm sure they'll take visitors on that day. Love to have you out there.
Phil Huber (34:17.933) Let's see, we just wrap it up another TV show episode today. This morning, in fact, did a hall cabinet that Dylan had designed. With in the magazine, we called it a Japanese style cabinet because he was taking some design cues from some Japanese furniture that he had run across and just liked some of the looks for it. We did this one all out of white oak.
Logan Wittmer (34:48.189) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (34:48.587) with on the base had some walnut accents, basically socks on the legs. Yeah, which was kind of a interesting... I wasn't sure about it when we had the blanks for it and then turned and then with oil on it. It's like, yeah, super cool. I love it.
Logan Wittmer (34:55.291) On the feet, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (35:12.507) Yeah, I'm not a fan of that design aesthetic, but that's just me. it, it creates a pain in the butt when you're turning because you get these weird, like you have the density change, which causes issue. if anybody's not to make this entire podcast about turning, but when you're, when you're turning and you're like in sapwood and heartwood two different densities, you get bounces with your tools.
Phil Huber (35:26.488) sure.
Logan Wittmer (35:37.946) You get the same thing on that when you're cutting from, you know, pretty soft air-dried walnut to white oak. You get a density shift, so it's hard to get a good cylindrical even cylinder, I guess. But... But it looks good.
Phil Huber (35:55.77) Yeah, it has a nice look because the, like you said, the legs on it are round. The rest of the case is very rectangular in its presentation. There's two openings in the doors that we covered with rattan, rattan caning on it, which I think ended up making it look really cool. So you have those two round windows, for lack of a better word, screens, and then...
Logan Wittmer (36:03.599) Yep.
Phil Huber (36:22.765) with the round legs I think plays really well. And then the bass rails are rounded on their bottom edges too. And then those fit into basically stepped mortises in the legs, which I thought was kind of a cool detail there.
Logan Wittmer (36:31.416) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (36:42.551) And both on the legs, speaking of details, the mortises on the legs for the rails, and then the mortises on the door styles. Dylan did, so it's mortise and tenon. They're basically open on the end and then run down to their length. So there's no, you know, especially on the doors where it's like a groove and then it comes in a little bit.
and then is the deeper mortise. It's just mortise straight from the end.
Phil Huber (37:21.633) I really liked that approach. I felt like it made it much easier to create the mortises.
Phil Huber (37:30.157) without having to deal with that extra step. And then also in making, gluing up the doors, not having to do a haunch at the top.
Logan Wittmer (37:39.405) Yeah. Yep. And really the only difference there is aesthetically on the top of the door, you see a longer tenon.
Logan Wittmer (37:49.923) So.
Phil Huber (37:51.096) Right, yeah. I'll go back to, I mean, even these doors, the doors on this cabinet are full overlay. So when you're up, stepped up to the cabinet looking at it, you can see that detail on there. But again, so, and then the other thing is even with those being full overlay doors, like when was the last time you paid attention to the top edge of a door, a cabinet door?
Phil Huber (38:21.539) Now, I don't, I would challenge anybody right now. I mean, everybody who's listening to this, the next time they open a cabinet door is going to see it because they're thinking of it. But when you're going into your kitchen cabinets, do you ever look at the top edge of the door? Nope. You're immediately trying to find where the paper towels are or wondering why your kids didn't take out the recycling or all that kind of stuff.
Logan Wittmer (38:38.145) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (38:46.041) So, yeah, it just makes for an easier door construction for mortise and tenon. And I know that there's going to be some traditionalists out there that's going to be like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about twisting or haunches and all that kind of stuff. And we used white oak. Those boards aren't going to spread apart. It's fine.
Calm down.
Logan Wittmer (39:16.759) If that's the weak point, you need to redesign everything anyways.
Phil Huber (39:23.495) Yes, yeah
Logan Wittmer (39:24.009) Always my mentality.
Phil Huber (39:33.347) The other thing related to that is that those doors are hung on concealed hinges, Euro-style hinges, which we've talked about this in the past on the podcast. It's really, I admire the look of butt mortised hinges.
Phil Huber (39:57.58) And in the past, I've struggled with concealed hinges and making it look right. But when you have nice, when you have nice hinges.
Phil Huber (40:11.193) they're really fun to work with, the Euro style, because of the adjustability on it. Like we use the blum hinges. So I got the doors hung, they were a little cockeyed, and that just a couple of turns with a screwdriver and they're ready to rock.
Logan Wittmer (40:30.473) Yeah. My biggest complaint with those types of hinges is not so much the installation, nor is it the look of them. do like, I do like, I like seeing butt hinges. Like I think the hardware just accents the project generally. Fully where like I use concealed hinges on my miter saw cabinet because I wanted the doors to swing all the way out of the way so the pullouts could come out. Like.
There's definitely places for them. And this is probably more of a function of where my most experience comes with these. The ones in my kitchen freaking loosen up all the time.
I am constantly tightening them. Like constantly, you walk in there and it looks like a Southside Des Moines smile. Everything's all crooked. Nothing lines up. know? It's just one of those like, gotta grab the screwdriver, spend 20 minutes tightening every drawer, door, and it's usually the mount. Those are different. Now that I'm thinking about it, those ones are the ones that mount to the face frame.
Phil Huber (41:18.116) Really?
Logan Wittmer (41:46.555) So the cup instead of being inside the cabinet, the cup is in the door. And then there's a bracket on the face frame.
Phil Huber (41:56.216) Is it the like grabby kind where like, yeah, no, I can see those. Those are frustrating.
Logan Wittmer (41:58.267) Yeah, yep, yep, and those are what, that's what loosens up, Yep, so maybe that's where my issue is, is there, so.
Phil Huber (42:11.669) and you can use
Euro-style hinges and still have inset doors. Like there's no...
It's very easy to design around the hinges or to put blocks underneath or behind the hinge plates and things like that to create inset doors and have it look like a traditional style. It doesn't have to be a frameless.
cabinet, full overlay kind of look. If that's what you want, totally fine. But don't feel like you're limited by that. You can work with it with face frames and all that sort of thing and it turns out magnificently. Fully knowing that there are, I mean this is woodworking. So you can have personal preferences that you don't like working with euro hinges or you don't like working with butt hinges or whatever.
Logan Wittmer (42:39.837) full overlay. Yep.
Phil Huber (43:09.345) or you think that knife hinges are just pretentious.
Phil Huber (43:16.139) any of those things. But there you go. Trying to think of what I've been working on recently.
Logan Wittmer (43:17.744) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (43:26.243) Mostly just getting ready for my router table e-learning course that I'll be filming next week.
Logan Wittmer (43:31.233) Mm-hmm. Let's focus on that one.
Phil Huber (43:33.935) Advanced router table. So we're going to do a bunch of techniques and then there'll be some joiner, there'll be a section on joinery and then like some upgrades and add-ons that we're going to be making that you could have for your router table.
Logan Wittmer (43:53.421) Speaking of which, I'm pretty excited to get rid of my router table, I think. Just because I've been, like, this is one of those things, like, I've been running everything off the Shaper lately. Shaper, router table, same dang thing, right? So why do I have two of them is the question. And I need the space more than I need that router table. So I'm going to...
Phil Huber (43:53.507) So I'm looking forward to that one.
Logan Wittmer (44:18.997) sell the router table. So anybody that needs to take Phil's course, you can buy him a router table. So there is there any feature on the router tables that we have in the shop that you feel like is an important one to have that we don't have?
Phil Huber (44:24.1) There we go.
Logan Wittmer (44:41.295) Like... the...
Phil Huber (44:42.393) Like the ones that we've, what do mean?
Logan Wittmer (44:46.125) Like I'm talking like, the ones we use in the shop, we use the Craig one that is on the set right now. Yep. Mark has the bench dog one. Yep. which I like cause it's, it's not a cat. That's a cast iron one. Isn't it? I like the cast iron top. the biggest thing that I think that those tables are all lacking that I really like about mine and would make me not.
Phil Huber (44:50.349) Yeah, in the studio. Yeah.
Phil Huber (44:55.885) Yeah, it's an old bench dog top, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (45:14.508) I don't care about a fence that's micro-adjustable. Like, none of that does anything for me. Like, I have a Woodpecker Shrider table. I have the Woodpecker's fence. It's a beautiful fence. I feel like that fence is for people that love features.
because there are adjustments for everything. You can align the faces, you know, one full turn, adjust it by, you know, 3,000, 3,000 of an inch. Like, I don't care. Like, give me a piece of plywood and a clamp, and I'm good with that. The dust cabinet underneath is the single best thing ever. The dust collection cabinet that I have underneath is Woodbecker's router table.
Phil Huber (46:02.001) really? Okay.
Logan Wittmer (46:02.848) Yes, because like our one in this studio has a shop made one that we did in woodsmith maybe seven years ago. It was Dennis Vol's design. Great storage. know, there is dust collection on it. It's not the greatest in the world. But I feel like more and more, I try to grab all the dust I can, anywhere I can.
Phil Huber (46:12.776) yeah,
Logan Wittmer (46:27.949) Because I just hate I hate the shop being dusty. It's dusty all the time, but like I hate it being dusty so like that's the only reason I default to My router table versus the shaper because the shaper does not have as good a dust collection as the router table And I noticed this the other day when I was using the Craig router table We have an older version of the Craig router table the new ones may be different But
Phil Huber (46:45.7) okay.
Logan Wittmer (46:55.604) Like if you are doing, I was doing, what was I doing? I was doing the mortises for the feet on that cabinet. If you're not using the fence, like there's no dust collection anywhere then because the fence is where the dust port is. Like I want something underneath the cabinet, underneath the table, grabbing that dust down through the throat plate and.
Like I'm not kidding you, this Woodpecker's one is freaking phenomenal. Like I love it. It helps having it plumbed into a big system. That definitely helps. But I didn't know if there was anything that you're like, I've used router tables to have this on it and it's just really nice. And I wish that these had it. I'm not a fan of like the lifts with the wheel that you turn by your hand. I hate those. Those are dumb.
Phil Huber (47:48.452) Yeah, I think, you know, to your point, the ones that have the, they're like over featured where the thumb wheel and then it's graduated where it's like, if I move it this much, it's, you know, 128th of an inch or something like that. I don't think like that. I just need it a little higher or a little lower. I don't know what that number is and kind of don't really want to know what that number is. I just want to go.
Logan Wittmer (48:06.528) Yeah.
Phil Huber (48:17.711) because I'm usually, you know, like sneaking up on the height of a cut or, you know, dialing it in or something like that, where I'm just trying to get there rather than a specific amount. I built my two router tables and made fences on it that have a micro adjust on it only for the fact that I like being able to dial it back. I, again, it's not graduated at
Logan Wittmer (48:26.675) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (48:46.857) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (48:47.009) in any amount.
Logan Wittmer (48:51.633) I guess the...
Phil Huber (48:51.853) Since when I built my router tables, one thing that I really liked around here was all of our router tables had lifts in them. So having a lift is expensive, but it's so nice.
Logan Wittmer (49:00.519) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (49:07.677) Yeah, yeah, there's on the lift note, like, I really appreciate the ones with the spring lift versus the crank lift. So the quick raise, so you put the toggle in, turn it and it lifts up. Love that. And then you have the micro adjust with the hand wheel or whatever the socket or the Allen key. I love that up and down.
Phil Huber (49:21.892) yeah. Right.
Phil Huber (49:29.325) Yeah. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (49:35.484) I know a lot of people who was like, I was talking to somebody the other day and they were talking about their router table that they had the Triton router in and the big thing that Triton always said was like, you can use our router without a lift because it kind of has a lift feature built into it, right?
Um, but there, I don't remember who I started with. They're like, yeah, but you gotta open the cabinet, unlock it from the underside. It's like, it's just not as convenient. So it's all a convenience thing. Um, I guess the biggest thing I'm getting at, I guess with the fences and stuff is like, I fricking hate split fences, hate split fences on a router table. Like, or like my Shaper has a split fence, dumbest thing in the world. It's always like, doesn't matter how
Carefully you align it something's always out and it's not coplanar. You're always doing in the corner of a workpiece on the far fence and you got to do a little to get it to go over or chamfer the edge so it slips over it and just stupid
Phil Huber (50:41.283) No, I, and that's one. So there's like an anti one. I, when I built mine, my two router fences do not have split fences. It's a continuous surface with just a cutout for the bit. And I made the bit cutouts large enough to accommodate like a slot cutter. That's my largest diameter bit right now. And then if I need, if I really need it smaller, which is extremely rarely, I can just.
attach a piece of quarter inch plywood or something like that and make a small of a little cutout as I need to.
Logan Wittmer (51:18.842) Yep. Yeah, I have the on the shaper fairly regularly, I will put a sacrificial fence on there and make it a zero clarity, especially I'm doing like a big raised panel cutter. Then I will absolutely I'll put a sacrificial plywood fence on there.
Phil Huber (51:33.026) yeah.
Logan Wittmer (51:38.403) And then the fences can be out a little bit because you're, you know, using the plywood as it, but then I can make it a sacrificial and just run, run the bit into the fence. So yeah.
Phil Huber (51:55.248) All right, there's our question. What's your must have feature on a router table on the fence or in the cabinet itself? Does it need to be a freestanding one? Do you like benchtop ones? What router are you putting in it? Who else out there has a shaper and why? What drew you into the shaper? And we're not talking the shaper origin. It's the old school spindle molding shaper.
That one. Wanna hear about it. Yeah. Send it to us at woodsmith at woodsmith.com or leave a comment on the YouTube channel for the ShopNotes podcast. That's it for this week, everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye.
