John wrapped up a restoration of a Bailey No. 4 hand plane this week. He was inspired by the class that Logan did on tool fixups.
In addition to the topic of old tools and getting them running, John debated about whether he could incorporate more planes into his work style. It's a good question for any kind of woodworker to be deliberate in how you add a new tool or style of work into your practice.
While you ponder that, here are some before/after images of John's plane.
Transcript
Phil Huber (00:57.198) That's what we're doing here on the ShopNotes Podcast. Woodworking poetry. We're bringing together juxtapositions. We're in liminal spaces, all of that kind of stuff. This is the shop notes podcast episode number 276. I'm Phil along with Logan and John. And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about old tools again and repair. We're also going to be talking about what it takes
to bring new tools into your shop. What's the thought process and the workflow behind all that? And of course, we're gonna get to listener and viewer feedback. All that and more, stick around after this word from our sponsor.
Phil Huber (01:53.678) All right, there we go. All right, we're gonna kick things off the usual way with viewer feedback from last episode. And we're gonna get started with James Cottingham says, at my wife's bridal shower, she was given a small tool set. At first she was confused about this gift, but the giver said that time would come when she would need them. It wasn't long before she found out how true that statement was. The tools weren't antique, just cheap Kmart style.
It included standard and Phillips screwdrivers, open-ended socket wrenches, pliers, and a file. I suspect you can substitute repurposed tools, especially better quality wrenches, for the cheap stamped wrenches she got. By the way, the tool restoration course is something I'm interested in. Well, there you go. We have at least one sign-up.
Logan (02:45.66) And puppy doc said he's buying it. Got two. Halfway to budget. Let's go.
Phil Huber (02:47.733) All right, two.
John Doyle (02:47.85) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (02:51.125) Yep. Boys said, glad you love the Northeast lokin. You're welcome to return anytime to our North Eastern Woodworkers Association Showcase in Saratoga, New York.
Logan (03:02.651) Awesome. Great bagels. Man. Stopped at the same bagel place every morning. And I probably said this. Brueggers for a long time had olive pimento cream cheese. They stopped carrying it, but the the bagel place I found in Saratoga or Sarasota, wherever. Up there in the northeast, they had it. God, so good. So good.
Phil Huber (03:30.348) Michael Thompson says, no sheets, Logan. I'm not sure we can talk anymore. Though in the interest of full disclosure, it does have a nickname I can't say on a family friendly podcast, but it is quite obvious. Phil, you read my mind as Otho said, so few are open to the experience. A couple of years ago, Taylor tools had some new old stock stack on metal toolboxes, red ones made in the US. I bought one each.
Logan (03:42.983) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (03:59.15) for my kids and I'm slowly filling them with basic homeowner tools. New, but same idea. Which ones? Channel locks, that's a good one. Needle nose and slip joint pliers. A multi-bit ratcheting screwdriver. Vise grips, claw hammer, circuit tester. Still need to add a few adjustable wrenches, closed end wrenches, maybe some ratchets and sockets. That should give them everything they need.
Logan (04:22.555) Mm-hmm. Stud Finder. Throw a stud finder in there. Yep. Yep. As a homeowner that has many things hung on the wall that has a line of screw holes behind the item. Like
Phil Huber (04:25.875) Studfinder, that's a good one.
Phil Huber (04:36.757) Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if any of you guys remember the cartoon show The Littles, where there's like little people that live in the walls. Yeah, John's tracking with me. Whenever I have to drill a bunch of those holes to try and find a stud, it looks like there was some kind of like a Littles mob hit inside my walls, just kind of like a machine gun Kelly across the across the back there. So
John Doyle (04:49.032) Yep. I remember.
Logan (04:49.197) It is.
Phil Huber (05:06.989) Pragmatic Luthier says a suggestion regarding teaching hand tool restoration. A little late for that. Concentrate on common processes before specific tools, i.e. removing rust from steel and cast iron, flattening a steel or iron surface, removing tarnish and cleaning brass, removing paint, while instructing on common tasks point where these are techniques are commonly useful.
Logan (05:14.756) Yep.
John Doyle (05:15.412) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (05:34.871) From there, move on to specific topics such as making totes, chisel handles, and finally to specific needs for restoring Stanley number 55 or a left-hand Yankee screwdriver. Just a thought.
Logan (05:47.631) Who said that?
John Doyle (05:48.403) I think
Phil Huber (05:49.101) He goes by the pragmatic luthier.
Logan (05:53.133) Okay, the pragmatic luthier, did you even listen to our podcast?
John Doyle (05:53.556) think he described your class.
Logan (05:58.202) I think he did. It's exactly what we filmed. Yeah.
John Doyle (05:59.529) Yeah, I think that was the full rundown.
Phil Huber (06:04.278) Yep. So three, he's maybe going to sign up now.
Logan (06:09.366) He's
Phil Huber (06:14.03) Dennis Miko says the hand tool haven 2025 raffled a carpenter's tool chest full of used, cleaned, ready to use hand tools. It went for $550 if memory serves me. That is all the new woodworker will need to get started. So John, I know you weren't here for last episode and I'm pretty sure you don't necessarily listen, though your dad does so he could fill you in.
John Doyle (06:38.772) Yeah. Yeah. Well actually I was I was traveling last week and normally I don't listen to the podcast if I'm not on it. Well, I don't listen to it when I'm on it either. But when I saw that it was talking about gas when I saw it was talking about gas stations, I was like, I gotta listen to this 'cause I gotta catch up on the gas station rundown. So yeah.
Logan (06:50.192) Ha ha.
Phil Huber (06:50.887) Hahaha!
Logan (06:53.941) Hehehehehe.
Logan (06:59.707) Hubbub. Yep.
Phil Huber (07:05.452) Yeah, so we were talking about like, and this applies to you too, cause you have kids. What would be a starter set of tools that you would offer to the kids? Cause I was thinking after my vacation time, the big one for me was the thumper. Like as much as it's really easy to think of like the claw handle or the claw hammer and a screwdriver and whatever, but like having a big hammer.
is something you don't think of, but is super useful, which inspired some of these comments.
John Doyle (07:38.271) Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. I actually have been thinking about this lately because my oldest son is gonna be a senior in college and they're moving his group of roommates are moving from an apartment to a house. So I've been kinda thinking about like some of the stuff I have just laying around that I have multiples of or stuff that I can collect that he wouldn't need in a house.
And like right now I have three different battery system of tools going on. So I maybe would pass down the Ryobi drills and odds and ends that go with that and keep my DeWalt and Milwaukee stuff. And then yeah, hammer for sure, big hammer. plenty of screwdrivers, wrenches. Stud finder is a good one.
'Cause you always need that for hanging stuff. trying to think what I've used lately in the house. 'Cause yeah. Yeah. I level level's good.
Logan (08:43.877) Do we say a level? Do we say a level?
Phil Huber (08:46.872) We didn't say a level, but a level would be a good one.
Logan (08:49.219) Like a torpedo, like a foot long, yep.
John Doyle (08:51.924) Yep. Be good. So but yeah, I I I have various drawers around the house with screwdrivers and ham like odds and ends stuff that's just easy to grab that we have lots of. So but yeah. If you're in a house, there's always one more thing that you need that y that you forgot about. So it's always that that run to the hardware store, Menards. So
Can't think of it all.
Logan (09:21.915) I'll throw I'll throw this in there too. I'm just thinking of all this stupid stuff in the pink plastic tool case that's in my cabinet that I use all the freaking time, even though I have thousands of dollars of tools out here. The thing it's missing, it does not have a set of Allen wrenches.
Phil Huber (09:39.182) Mmm.
Logan (09:41.422) Like it's just one of the little flip out switchblade type, you know, all in one, a metric and a a standard Allen wrench set. Because like most things you don't need it for, but like when your towel rack loosens up and you need to tighten that, you know, the toilet paper holder loosens up, you need to tighten the set screw, like all that stupid stuff.
John Doyle (09:42.634) Hmm.
John Doyle (10:00.191) Yeah. Yeah. That's good to have all in one 'cause usually it's yeah, as a first time homeowner you you have that you lose or you have the baggie of just random Allen wrenches that you've collected from Ikea and all of the little install assembly stuff. Yeah. So it's good to have it all of them in one place.
Logan (10:06.991) You lose them. Yeah.
Logan (10:12.099) Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (10:17.408) and wherever.
And you have, yeah, and you end up with like 60 of them that are the same size, even though they're slightly different lengths. So you think, that's the right size that I need. Cause that one looks like, nope, that's the exact same size that I just tried and it doesn't fit.
John Doyle (10:33.418) Yeah. So the other thing, maybe like a putty knife or like just some standard like drywall stuff.
Logan (10:34.393) Mm-hmm.
Logan (10:41.827) yeah.
Phil Huber (10:42.636) Logan (10:49.113) Yeah. I would throw I would throw in a I mean, yeah, I guess you can get away with just a paint knife. I like the also I have one in my drawer, my junk drawer in the house. one of the straight blade like box cutter style razor scrapers. You know what I mean? Like it just uses the straight the straight razors you can buy in a you know, two hundred pack for three bucks or whatever, and just a scraper. Those are nice too.
Phil Huber (10:51.052) Okay.
John Doyle (11:10.737) yeah.
John Doyle (11:17.962) Yeah. Yep. Utility knife would be good also. Good utility knife.
Logan (11:24.57) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (11:31.106) What we need to do is put together this list and then make a small or figure out one of our toolbox projects that all of this would fit in.
and then have that for like a plans giveaway sale event for graduation time.
John Doyle (11:54.827) And then everybody needs a three pack of six inch Woodsmith Steel Rules at from woodsmith.com slash store on sale today.
Phil Huber (11:55.15) All right.
Phil Huber (12:01.902) Ha ha.
Phil Huber (12:13.006) All right.
Phil Huber (12:18.466) I have a pretty big list here of tools I apparently need to get now. Always value the questions and comments and smart remarks that we get from folk on the podcast. If you want to check in yourself, can send us an email, woodsmith at woodsmith.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel, Shop Notes Podcast, and leave a comment there.
Tom Lyons sent in, says, Hey, I'll take it. And thanks for not dissing New Jersey.
Logan (13:14.235) Yeah, that was re: the comment that I actually don't mind jersey. The people are sketchy. State's great.
Phil Huber (13:28.586) Yeah, this one is from Arvin Meyer. On shop notes 247, think you mentioned Harbor Freight tools as being more for occasional use. Not exactly the same, the case. In 2004, we had a number of serious hurricanes visit central Florida, where I live. I needed a one time use hammer drill to mount plywood over my windows. Went to Harbor Freight and bought a Hercules half inch hammer drill. Came with a case, charger, two batteries.
I was impressed with its power and quality. Now, 22 years later, I'm still using it as a half inch drill and production woodworking. The batteries, amazingly, are still good, taking a full charge and lasting through driving hundreds of inch and a half screws. Impressed, I've purchased several other Hercules branded tools, both corded and battery driven. They are all of excellent professional grade quality and work as well as, or sometimes better than high end tools.
Logan (14:25.859) Arvin, I think if you would go back and re listen to that, I'm sure you'll find a caveat in there where one of us mentioned that there are some really good things at Harbor Freight. Like they have definitely upped their game over the last, I don't know, 10 years or so. especially, you know, corded tools, yes, and and battery powered tools, but especially in their like hand tool offering, like their mechanic tools and stuff, like they're great.
Phil Huber (14:30.35) Ahem.
Logan (14:55.961) So yeah. If it's if it is not a woodworking tool, it's Harbor Freight in my shop.
Phil Huber (15:03.256) Okay. Yeah. My son does, auto mechanic stuff and works part-time in an auto shop, nearby. And a lot of the mechanics in his shop, the full-time guys have icon tools from Harbor freight. And so he started stocking up his set on those as well.
Logan (15:23.92) Yeah.
Phil Huber (15:29.622) And I think it's one of those deals where like I can remember, and I grew up back in the day when like craftsmen mechanics tools were good stuff. And that was kind of like the default. I don't know. I would call it like your utility grade, you know, stuff that's not going to wear out or break, but isn't going to break your bank either.
Logan (15:44.048) Good.
Phil Huber (15:59.221) on trying to, trying to afford them. I don't know the crap. think icon is probably something that's stepped into that place a little bit more.
Logan (16:09.273) Yeah. Yeah. Not I mean, obviously they're not the American made craftsman sets. but like as production techniques and material engineering of advances, like they're great. So all that is to say there is some junk at Harbor Freight still. But
Phil Huber (16:15.468) Yeah.
Phil Huber (16:34.496) yeah.
Logan (16:36.523) Mm most of it is pretty dang good stuff. Also, like the I it would be interesting to kind of know the the ins and outs of like the Harbor Freight volume that they've done over the last call it decade, decade and a half, because I have to assume that Harbor Freight probably feels more pressure from Amazon than some other stores.
Right. Because I can go on, you know, I have I have a dozen tools in the shop here, or in in my where all my mechanics tools are that are like very specialty things. Like I could probably find at Harbor Freight, like I could probably find a set of bearing polars at Harbor Freight. But I also can go on Amazon, find a set as cheap or cheaper that has great reviews.
Phil Huber (17:07.148) I would say probably, yeah.
Logan (17:34.812) straight from a manufacturer, and hadn't have it delivered tomorrow. You know what I mean? So I don't need to really leave the house. that's how my, you know, I have a flywheel polar, I have some gear polars, I have bearing presses, I have conduit wrenches, like all this weird stuff that you you maybe can get at Harbor Freight, but I know I could definitely get on Amazon and they're not what I would call necessary tools, but they're they're definitely specialty tools.
But I can get them fairly inexpensively. So I I'd be interested to know what the what the input from Harbor Freight would be from, you know, in regards to Amazon tools. Like have they have they felt it? Have they not? Is it is that their biggest competition? 'Cause I have to assume it is. Like
Phil Huber (18:26.796) Yeah, I would almost think so that, and I would think you could probably insert any tool store would, know, Home Depot, Menards, Ace, you know, their biggest competitor is probably not each other in a given town. It's probably, it's probably Amazon.
Logan (18:34.223) Sure.
Logan (18:47.856) Yeah.
That's fair.
I was just thinking, like, you know, walking through Harbor Freight, some of the weird shit that they have, where it's like, where else are you going to find that tool? And like there's I honestly, I think like most of the tools I go into Harbor Freight for are mechanical related, right? It's not, it's not I'm not going in there for router bits. I'm going in there for latex gloves, chip brushes, and then you know, a random vacuum line.
Phil Huber (19:03.725) Yeah.
Logan (19:23.237) Tester, you know what I mean? Like stuff like that. like the only other place locally that I think I could walk in and grab those type of things, like like a vacuum line tester or a you know, XYZ mechanic tool, is like into an auto zone or a O'Reilly. And I can't I can't believe that the AutoZone or O'Reilly tool would be
of better quality. I don't believe that. Like, so I don't know.
Phil Huber (20:01.74) I do like...
Phil Huber (20:05.42) I don't know. Again, probably showing my age. I highly question the reliability of reviews on Amazon. And also I like seeing the thing if, if at all possible before I get something. I'm, I'm probably more likely to go to Menards or Home Depot or Harbor Freight than I am to order it on Amazon only because I like to see it.
Logan (20:14.597) Yeah.
Logan (20:17.915) That's fair.
Phil Huber (20:34.926) But sometimes, especially like a Harbor Freight where they'll have, for example, like snap ring pliers. You know, they're gonna have several versions of it and you can, they're all wrapped in plastic so it's not like you can use them, but you can kind of see like, this one's actually made out of aluminum foil.
Logan (20:42.885) Mm-hmm.
Logan (20:58.849) It's it's like the it's funny because I did this exact thing with snap ring pliers when I was doing my when I was doing my stupid my regular arm drill press is when I did this entire thing. I had snap ring pliers. I went into Harbor Freight for something else, and I'm like, the ones I have are junk. Like they're like they're like old school Harbor Freight ones. Like, let's see what the better ones are. And I picked up a set of the icons, which are
Phil Huber (21:04.372) Hahaha.
Phil Huber (21:11.821) Right.
Logan (21:27.951) Like I think it's the high end. Like and I think Harbor Freight you're gonna find that there is
Cheap, better, best of almost everything, right? And I picked up the icons, which are the best ones. I I want to say it was like 45 bucks for a one one single pli, right? Snap ring plier. And I got home perfect example. I was like, that seemed really expensive. I do I really need a 45 snap ring plier. Then I open it up. then I went on Amazon and I found a set of four that
was actually comparing them to the icons in the reviews, for like a th I don't know, maybe a third less. And they're great. They're fantastic. So I returned the icon. so I don't know. It's just it's i it's interesting. All this is to say, Arvin, that Harbor Frey stuff is pretty good. I don't think we're saying it's bad.
Except their sandpaper. The sandpaper sucks.
Phil Huber (22:35.118) All right.
Yeah, we're going to stick with the theme of tools here. And it was something that John and I were talking about just a little while ago in inspired by your tool restoration class that you're working on. John, want to talk about what tool you've been working on here?
John Doyle (23:04.065) yes. A couple weeks ago I gotta sit in on Logan's class, which
gave me the inspiration and the bug to get out a Stanley number four hand plane that was handed down to me. It was my dad's dad's my grandfather's hand plane and I know it's sat on the shelf for at least thirty years, probably even longer than that, but I've had it for at least ten years sitting in a box. So that kind of gave me the push to to get that out and kind of go through the process of
restoring that so got to see Logan's process firsthand and so going through that and I was just
showing Phil, I like it it had been sitting on the shelf a while and I don't know if it's ever even been used. It it looked other than surface rust and dust, it looks in pretty good condition. And I thought the the totes and knobs on it were just black blacker because they were so shiny and dark and
So I and I wasn't gonna touch those other than because it just had a few dents and things in but nothing bad. And I decided to kind of sand them down a little bit and when I took off I realized the bottom was rosewood. So I was like, that's kind of a cool one, yeah. So I just kinda scuffed them up a little with like four hundred grit sandpaper and and use like a wax finish on And I I mean I'm amazed on just how much better they look with that and how but how much better they feel and but
Logan (24:25.652) is it really?
John Doyle (24:43.209) Still in the process of I have to put the plane body in some evaporust and get that cleaned up, but most of it's I'm getting buffed up and ready to put back together the main body, so it's it's kinda cool to to to get that out and
Logan (24:57.135) Yeah. Nice.
John Doyle (25:03.851) Start working on that. But yeah, it's funny. I sat in that that class with you the week before I went on vacation. And I don't know that I've ever intentionally gone into an antique store or a flea market and look for anything. But when we were in Florida, our hotel was like a couple blocks down from a strip mall that had an antique store in it. So I had to like go in there and and like look at all the tools and there wasn't anything that I had to that was priced right for me to go to
Logan (25:33.403) Bring home. Yeah.
John Doyle (25:33.845) the trouble, yeah, of trying to either fit my suitcase or ship back or thing, but it's like I mean just old tools in general and they had workbenches and tool totes and you know all kinds of stuff. It's just it it's so cool to look at that stuff because everything is like so unique and either handmade or customized or there's all different kinds of manufacturers back then where it seems like now everything's like homogenized and it came from the same factory and just has a different paint scheme.
or different brand name on it and it's like this is this is really cool and unique and stuff was simpler so you could go the process of restoring or customizing stuff so yeah kind of kind of got that bug a little bit but yeah so working on my my own hand plane and hopefully I'll have it done here by the end of the week and just show it off so yeah
Logan (26:19.011) Ice.
Logan (26:27.311) Heck yeah. The question is though, then are you gonna use it or is it gonna sit on the shelf for another forty years?
John Doyle (26:32.381) I don't know. I don't know. I'd I might give it back to my dad. I if I would have been home a week ago, I would've finished up and give it to him for Father's Day or whatever and but we'll see. I know but if it doesn't come out till Friday, if I you know, I have hard deadline of getting it done by Friday morning. Other than then I'm gonna look stupid if I don't. So so what is it's Wednesday morning as we're recording this, so it's gonna be it's gonna be tight. So
Logan (26:40.405) Except he listens to this and now you just ruined it. Dang it. true. Yeah.
Phil Huber (26:49.834) Hahaha
Logan (26:54.235) Yeah.
John Doyle (27:02.153) We'll see.
Phil Huber (27:02.478) Otherwise you're going to see him this weekend and he's just going to be very expectant the whole time.
Logan (27:06.595) Yeah, he's
John Doyle (27:06.613) Yeah. I'll I'll have to go buy a new hand plane like here it is. This is it. Remember this? So yeah. So no, I think it'll be back together by the end of the week. So it's in it's in good shape. But yeah, so I told Phil though I was gonna say I told I told Phil though that if you know I get into finding old hand planes I'm have to find a different territory 'cause you kinda have central Iowa covered here. So maybe I'll
Phil Huber (27:10.028) anything
Okay. Ta-da!
Phil Huber (27:23.0) So Logan, at, go ahead.
Logan (27:32.047) Got locked up. Locked up.
John Doyle (27:35.669) move down to Florida, take the southeast region. I know. Right, right. Yeah. You know what, there there's a lot of old people down there with estates and so
Logan (27:38.811) That's a terrible spot to search for old hand tools. It's so bad. I looked when I was down there last time. It was so bad.
There that is true. I mean, y yeah, you're not wrong. And like in reality, that is true. People have moved down there with a bunch of you know what I found more of down there, which I also kinda collect is smoking pipes. Like a lot of old smoking pipes down there. yeah, I I looked last time I was down there and there were some cool things. The the biggest problem, and I I'm sure we talked about this, is like sometimes people think that their vintage handles are worth
thousands of dollars. And I'm like, mm, like you're like you're really not gonna get sixty bucks for that r hunk of crap. Like, you know, everything has value to somebody, but sometimes the value is just far too much for what it actually is.
John Doyle (28:18.485) Yeah, yeah.
Phil Huber (28:36.014) What you asked the question, Logan, that I was going to put to you guys and the group of listeners here is, mean, John fully admits that he doesn't use hand planes a lot in the work that he does. So the question then is, what does it take or what's your thought process to bring in a new or a new type of tool into your shop and then try it out?
What would you do then workflow wise to bring that into play?
Logan (29:12.884) Mm-hmm. I don't actively search out like a I don't actively search out.
A reason to bring a tool into my shop, contrary to the popular belief of our video crew. Like, I mean, like, it's more so like if I'm interested in building something and I see the need for that tool, then I'm more apt to bring it into the shop, right? Whether it's new or vintage. like there are some vintage, like brace and bit, I don't use them a whole
Like I don't really like I have a good set and I use them if I need to, but like I don't I don't use them a whole lot. I have some chairmaking tools up in the cabinet above me. I Travisher, Scorps, stuff like that. I I would like to carve out some time pun intended to do some Windsor chairs. done a couple Windsor-ish style stuff. like that's the reason I bring those in. now the only
Along those lines, like I have a I have a good scorp from bar tools. I would like a a little bit shallower one for some areas because I've seen the need for that in some of the Windsor Chair classes I've I've watched and watching people do Windsor Chairs. So like if I see one, I'll grab it because I know the application of that in the stuff that I want to build. I have a hard time saying.
look, this is a cool tool. I just want to find a way to use it. Like I I hate going out of my process to try to work a tool into my workflow, which is admittedly, you know, we're talking vintage tools here, but admittedly, like that has been a little bit of my reluctance with the CNC. And I'm gonna include Shaper Origin in that. it's I you know, I've had origin for years. and just recently I've really started to to use it heavily because
Logan (31:17.411) I never wanted to go out of my way to figure out how to make it work, but the more I use it, the more I'm like, Yep, this just fits this is just it fits into my workflow a lot better. So
Phil Huber (31:28.172) Yeah, I mean, I want to hear John's perspective on like what it would take to get him to be a hand plane user in his own head. But that's where I wanted to push back a little bit on you because I was thinking specifically Logan. And with that, I'm going to name some names of tools, but it's more of like the concept, not necessarily either endorsing or bagging on a specific tool. Shaper Origin was one.
Panto router and then what you've been doing with a shaper spindle molder. You know, like those are three tools that I've seen you adopt slash figure out how they fit into your workflow. And I know that we're a little bit of a weird situation here because some of that is professional development. You know, we need because of where we're working right now.
Logan (31:59.418) Yep. Yep.
Phil Huber (32:23.938) You know, there's an element of that in there, I'm sure.
So maybe talk about that, like with those three tools. Like you talked about the Shaper Origin a little bit, but.
Logan (32:34.607) Yeah, well so I think
With those, each one of those has a learning curve, right? The origin, the shaper not so much because it's just a giant router table. It's more or less a giant router table with different cutters. So that is pretty intuitive as somebody who has used router table for years. Like that, like you have to understand feeds and speeds and stuff like that because you're spinning a five inch diameter bit versus a one inch diameter bit.
so that is a pretty easy step into. Origin was it was more of a I understand the digital side.
Origin for me was easier because I've never been a real heavy CAD user. I learned I learned Auto CAD when I was in high school. Haven't touched it since. So like I learned Auto CAD. So like drawing, drawing and modeling something isn't something that I really wanted to do. If I ever needed, like in the past, if I ever needed something like a template, my most direct from point A to B for me in my shop is using something like Illustrator.
Because I know how to use Illustrator. We use it in our day-to-day workflow for the magazine stuff. So, like to me, that was always the fastest from A to B was just to draw whatever template I needed in Illustrator. I know how to do it. I can do it quickly. Not necessarily something that I can grab and put into a a C and C. Like I can't I think you could, but like I can't necessarily just grab an AI file, upload it into Vcarve, and then get a G code spit it out for the the Axiom.
Logan (34:24.665) But origin, like it takes that AI file, no problem. I just upload it to the cloud and it's it's there to the the shaper hub. so that was a that was a pretty easy like step into stepping stone into that digital work world, I guess. and the the pantorouter is
kind of a different thing altogether. The Panto Router I'm I'm putting I'm gonna group with like the the multi router from formerly JDS now Woodpeckers, where they do they do certain things really, really well. the Panto Router does joinery really well. It does mortise and tenon really well. It does box joints really well. Finger joints it does slot mortises really well. and there's overlap on some of these tools.
And more so now I have to decide what's the appropriate tool and what's the easiest tool. if that makes sense. For me, great example. Hold on, I'm gonna grab something.
Phil Huber (35:39.682) We'll wait.
Logan (35:41.008) Yep. Just wait. It's right here. So, like, this is a great example. This is an example that I used three different tools on because I had remake this stupid thing twice. Actually, this is the third one I made for this application. This is the Astro Golf the Church Doors in South Dakota, right? I needed to remake it with this a little thicker. this slot here is a rounded slot, not through, obviously.
it's three-quarters of an inch wide, 7.721 inches deep, and I don't know, seven and a half inches long, give or take. it is for the it is for the latches that hold the door top and bottom to hold the the fixed door closed. I used all three tools to make those slots. To me, the most direct is
Putting a three-quarter inch bit in the shaper and just running it like a stopped groove, right? Like we would standardly do. However, my three-quarter inch bit was too long. So I basically had to make that all in one pass. And that is a chomper. Yeah, it was not fun. I did it. It was not fun. I did that on the first one, and then I don't remember what happened. I messed it up. I screwed up somewhere, and I had to remake it.
So I was like, all right, that was a little butt pucker factor. We're not gonna do that this time. So the next time I did it, I did it with the panther router. Okay. I set up the segmented template, did it with the panther router. Worked out fine. however, the work holding on something that long is kind of kind of odd. it just it wasn't as smooth as I was expecting it to be. It w it worked fine. it just wasn't.
As smooth as I wanted it to be. that is the one that is currently installed in South Dakota. When I realized I needed to make it wider, I was like, you know, I'm being dumb about this thing. I can in two minutes draw that mortise in Illustrator, send it to Origin. Actually, I drew it on Origin. I didn't even do it in Illustrator. I just drew it on Origin. And I let
Logan (38:05.719) Origin do it with bench pilot as I was doing other crap in the shop. So like three very different approaches to it. not a single one of them was right, but one was better than the others. so I don't even remember what your original question was. But like I think I think that.
Any of these tools, you kind of have you do have to spend some time to like learn how they're gonna fit in your workflow. And I think for most people in their shops, you know, obviously we're a little different because you know, some of these tools I've bought, some of these tools have been given to us for the magazine content. you have to weigh a tool.
And the price and see do you see value in that tool spending your money on it for what it's going to do? Also, the other part of that is once you have spent your money on the tool, you feel obligated to use it. And you might feel obligated to use it even if it's not the right tool for the task, right? So it's like there's this weird thing there. So
Phil Huber (39:28.364) Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let's flip this to John here. You had talked about before we started airing, you know, that you weren't much of a hand plane user, which was not shade in any way. It was just your workflow. But you said that you had a block plane that you've used on occasion. So if you were to say, you know, I've fixed up this hand plane. It's not cool enough for my dad. I'm just going to keep it.
What would it take for you, how would you then start to put it to work in what you do? Like, how would you go about that?
John Doyle (40:09.355) Yeah. Well I'd say, trying to think of my woodworking journey that, you know, I would have started at home and then shop class in high school. And I don't think I was really introduced to to hand tools that much. It was more power tools. So that kind of just became the default was to find a power tool that would get the job done.
So I don't think I really started picking up a lot of hand tools until working here where I was exposed to that a little bit more twenty years ago. And that's where I learned that a lot of times a hand tool can get the job done faster or better sometimes than power tools. So like
picking up a hand scraper might get the job done faster than just an orbital sander. Just sanding and sanding, sanding. Scraper or block plane might save on the setup of a router or you know, just if you're doing some, you know simple profile or
kind of honing in the the fit of a door, a block plane might might get you there faster. So I'd say the hand tool introduction was just finding a faster way. It was more, I guess, the joy in creating and getting the job done than the process. So I never, you know, really picked up hand tools unless it would get the job done faster. but
Yeah, seeing Logan's class and when he got that hand plane done and just fine-tuning it in and getting the fine shavings, I was like, that's really cool. And then you can kind of find joy in the process than just getting to the end product. So I thought that was kind of cool. so just I guess being exposed to it more would get me there. And then the other thing is having a sharpening system where
John Doyle (42:18.773) you can you can do that and get good results and and get it done quickly would be another like hurdle for for hand tools I guess. So I guess that's the two things is exposure, having having the tools and then having a way to sharpen them. So
Phil Huber (42:38.412) Okay. That's cool.
Phil Huber (42:44.366) Because I think about in my shop.
practice when I moved to a bandsaw shop.
just making the deliberate case to use the bandsaw and just doing it over and over again, like you said, exposure to be able to figure out, you know, what that tool was capable of. And then what that tool does in terms of my ability to do the projects that I want to do to get those done or to offer, like Logan was saying with the, either the Panto router or
or origin that it gives me.
new or different capabilities to do something that I couldn't before. So that was kind of interesting because I feel the same way about.
Phil Huber (43:49.869) like the slot mortising system that I have at home, the Jessam pocket mill, I think is what theirs is. It's the same thing like the Craig Mortis Mate. You know, just realizing how I've kind of leaned towards loose tenon joinery and specific and now having a dedicated tool to it. And then thinking of ways to be able to set that up and put that to work in a project that
that makes sense for it and then to keep at it. So, yeah.
All right. Cool. So that's my question for listeners out there is what tools do you have in your shop? Or when you're looking at a new tool, like how do you decide whether you want to bring something new into your shop? Whether it's supposed to do something that you're already doing better or maybe a new capability? What's your thought process? And then how do you integrate it that that into your workflow? Because I think
We all have a variety of tools that are either nice to have or nostalgic or represent some kind of aspiration, but they don't, they're not tools you're grabbing every day. Like Logan's chair making tools. I have a bunch of those, not chair making tools, but I have a bunch of tools in that same way that aren't part of the everyday. I'm talking about, so I want to hear more about like, how would you bring a tool into your shop that would be part of the everyday?
Logan (45:10.533) Mm-hmm.
Phil Huber (45:30.926) All right.
There we are. I think that wraps it up for another episode of the ShopNotes podcast. Like I said, if you want to get a hold of us, you can send us an email, woodsmith at woodsmith.com. Put a comment on the Shop Notes podcast YouTube channel, subscribe, like, ring the bell, all that kind of stuff for it to check in with where we're at. Love to hear from all of our listeners. We read every comment and often share them.
with each other before an episode starts. The Shop Notes podcast is a weekly woodworking podcast and is a production of active interest media. Nate Gruca is our editor and we apologize to him almost every week. Ben Strano is our executive digital editor responsible for all things in podcast land. We will see you next time everybody. Bye.
