Loose Tenon Joiney
Among the topics Logan and I addressed in this epsiode, I want to call out his question about getting a Festool Domino XL in order to make a set of large entry doors. Certainly he could use the Pantorouter. But on large workpieces, a hand-held tool makes a lot of sense.
I'm a huge fan of loose tenon joinery. Biscuits, dowels, shop-made jigs, I love them all. For me it's a system that allows a woodworker to focus on single tasks at a time. Not long ago, I created an elearing course where I go through several options you have. It's called Power Tool Joinery. If you check it out, the course is on sale now (November 2025).
This week, I was using Kreg's Mortise Mate to create loose tenon joints for a project we're building for the TV show. The jig requires a special bit and a hand drill. It's a delight to use. And a reminder that there are so many ways for working wood.
Transcript
Invitation to read, comment, and subscribe.
Phil (00:09.035) It's time everybody. The ShopNotes podcast is on the floor. Episode number 253. I'm your host Phil Huber along with Logan Wittmer on today's episode. We'll be addressing quite a number of reader comments. We also have a listener question that we'll dive into. There's lots of different ways to approach all the things that we do. Always love to hear from.
listeners and viewers. can check us out on the ShopNotes podcast on our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash shop notes podcast or send us an email woodsmith at woodsmith.com. Pay the bills here with a sponsor message.
Shop Notes podcast is brought to you by Gorilla Glue. When you're working on a project in the shop and you frankly should be, you put in hours of effort. The last thing you want is for it to come apart because the glue didn't hold. That's why you should keep a bottle of Gorilla Wood Glue on the bench. It's non-foaming. It cleans up with water and dries a natural color. And of course, there's the reliable Gorilla Strength you can always trust. Also check out the Gorilla Wood Filler for strong, durable repairs.
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All right, we'll dive into the comments section from last episode.
Myhermitlife writes, that was us with the Sawtill. And correction, it was a convertible Chevy Camaro.
Logan Wittmer (02:26.125) Dang it, I thought it was Mustang. Whatever.
Phil (02:27.969) Yep. Depending on who you are and what world you circle in, it's like same. And in some people that's like apostasy to be able to say something like that. Stiegs writes, I subscribe to both Popwood and Woodsmith Mags and always read the editor letters first. That would be one.
Logan Wittmer (02:30.323) I'm a fork guy, so.
Phil (02:52.035) As far as ash goes, some can have the yellow hue of dried wood glue, and that's the color that I was trying to talk about.
Logan Wittmer (02:59.799) That's 100 % what it is too.
Phil (03:02.367) Right. Because we have, we're shooting a TV show episode with a vanity with that ash. It's actually going to go in your shop and it's ash that you milled somewhere around here. And like we were talking about, it does not have that color, but we needed some ash plywood for like some interior pieces, blah, blah, blah. And that stuff has the dried tight bond original.
Logan Wittmer (03:12.598) Yeah.
Phil (03:31.405) color in it. That's right on the nose. James Steven says, I want to ask a question about the holiday lantern project. you, any of you guys come up with a more accurate way to put the eighth inch groove in the dowels for the panels to sit in?
Logan Wittmer (03:31.66) Mm-hmm.
Phil (03:53.763) Holiday Lantern Project.
come up with a more accurate way to put the eighth inch groove in the dowels for the panels to sit in. Here's what happens when you don't read the questions before you start recording a podcast episode. Because what I'm doing right now is what we call filler while Logan frantically Googles what we're trying to solve right now.
Logan Wittmer (04:17.396) I'm... that's exactly what I'm doing. And I'm not connected to the VPN so I can't pull it up. But! What I will... I mean, I'm assuming they're like... grooves along the length of the... dowel? Right?
Phil (04:36.087) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (04:38.216) I mean, when that is the case that you're trying to put a groove along the length of a dowel, my default is almost always to route the dowel out of square stock, but leave the ends square, so then you have the square reference to make the groove.
Phil (04:58.891) Okay. I'll buy that.
Logan Wittmer (05:01.546) That'd be my go-to. So if you have a section of stock, you do a round over along all four edges, but leave the last inch square, and then you can use that to set your reference. That would be what I would do, but I'm like semi-panicking because I don't know what the grooves are.
Phil (05:04.022) Okay.
Phil (05:15.202) Yeah.
Phil (05:20.481) Okay. yeah. It's actually in woodsmith number 120 from 1998. And the corner posts are dowels. What did they, I mean, they got to show how they do it, right? yeah. So they do.
Logan Wittmer (05:30.123) Yeah, I was looking, I was trying to find that.
Logan Wittmer (05:38.378) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (05:43.805) I would think so.
Phil (05:48.28) They have that you have your dowels and each dowel has like a tenon on the end of it. So the dowel then goes into you make little square. The art shows inch and a half square pieces of hardwood with a hole that matches the tenon size. Making square ends, right.
Logan Wittmer (05:53.13) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (06:09.0) Yeah, so you're basically making square ends on an owl. Yeah.
Phil (06:13.291) And then you can run that across the table saw. when that's pinched together, if it's a nice tight fit, then you can run that across the table saw blade or like a slot cutter and cut the groove in there. The dowels are.
Logan Wittmer (06:23.497) Yeah. What's the dimer of the dowel?
Phil (06:34.787) 3 1⁄4 inch diameter dowels.
Logan Wittmer (06:37.051) yeah, so they're pretty big size, right? So I like, yeah, that's, I think, I think that is probably the most accurate way to do that. Either leaving the ends square or, or doing what the art shows. I don't know if the art shows it or not. Are there, is there just one groove in each or are they grooves like in 90 degree planes to each other? Yeah.
Phil (06:39.233) Yeah, right.
Phil (06:45.379) Yeah.
Phil (06:57.461) It's 90 degree planes, which is why those end pieces are square. So then you just rotate your piece. And I get that you might worry about the dowel rotating in there. I think if you set screw or like even a, I was thinking even like a brad through the end just to hold it, you know, or whatever, think. But yeah, the way that they show it in the magazine in figure four, I'm, I'm all for that.
Logan Wittmer (07:07.348) Throw a set screw in it.
Logan Wittmer (07:13.832) Yeah. Yep.
Logan Wittmer (07:26.238) Yeah, I think that's fine. Yeah. I was thinking doing the groove at the router table, but the router table would definitely have more potential to roll that dowel than the table saw would, where the table saw, the force is in line with everything.
Phil (07:26.573) That works for me.
Phil (07:34.509) Right.
Phil (07:44.373) It could.
Phil (07:49.676) Yeah, yeah. Which is why I'm thinking like if you do, if you choose to do it with a router table, I would do it with a slot cutter because then it's going to be more like that table saw cutting action on there. it's, yeah. No, I'm cool with that.
Logan Wittmer (07:59.303) Yeah, that's also true.
Phil (08:06.444) Love it.
Bye.
Phil (08:16.191) Harold McDonald writes PSA for fellow commenters the level of heckling beyond which Phil will no longer read your comments on where on the air is somewhere south of suggesting things. In the words of john Doyle, I'll see myself out.
Logan Wittmer (08:33.341) I'm gonna have to go back and wait, what episode was that on?
Phil (08:36.227) 251 like people can go back and read them I'm just not gonna read that yeah in response to that Ryan McGregor says well your comment may not have been read on the air but at least the shop tour magically got done
Logan Wittmer (08:40.81) I'm going to. That's awesome.
Phil (08:56.172) and judging by Logan and John snickering at $159, it at least did provide some comic relief off there.
Phil (09:05.957) master ranger says Southern shores coffee is the best. Get the blueberry, bushwhacker, or the black and tan. I'm not sure I'm familiar with Southern shores coffee.
Logan Wittmer (09:17.096) I
Logan Wittmer (09:27.11) in Alabama.
Phil (09:29.347) Okay. All right. Steven Ferguson says feeding off John's War of the Whirls suggestion, As the Whirl Turns might be good for Logan. It's a play on a soap opera title, in case you didn't pay attention to what your mom or wife watched during daytime TV.
Logan Wittmer (09:31.017) All right.
Phil (09:51.127) There you go.
Always glad to have comments. Always glad to have the option to choose to read what I choose to read. If you want to read other comments on a podcast, get your own. All right, let's dive in here. had a question that I think probably based on topics that we've talked about on the podcast here. John Phillips writes,
I'm planning on making a front door for our hundred plus year old farmhouse. I'm going to use white oak, but I'm concerned it's not the best wood to use if it's going to be painted. Can you give me your thoughts or suggestions? I have.
in
I think that there's a bias sometimes when furniture makers start doing house projects. In that as furniture makers, a lot of times we have a bias towards natural wood. And if you say white oak to somebody, immediately that furniture maker is going to go to some arts and crafts stickly project and the thought of slapping a coat of paint on that.
Logan Wittmer (10:59.751) Mm-hmm.
Phil (11:15.181) feels a little, yeah, yeah.
Phil (11:23.659) In my opinion, I think white oak is very paintable.
Phil (11:34.391) that so I think it I think and this is where I'm going to invite you to chime in on because you have a little bit more experience with it than I would but I think that there is better paint and lesser better paints to use whether it's white oak or not.
Logan Wittmer (11:53.414) Yes, yes, and that is exactly where I was going. My problem with painting oak is not that you're painting oak. My problem with painting oak...
is more of a problem with painting any open grain wood is you have grain texture that's going to show through and you have the task of getting that paint down into those grain pours to give yourself complete coverage and that is a royal pain in the butt unless you use the right paint.
and I think the right paint for that application is linseed paint because the pigment size is so small in that linseed paint, it...
gets down into that grain really nicely. And then what you're doing, now again, this is completely based on the premise that you can get linsy paint in the color that you or your significant other wants.
What you're doing is you are allowing the grain of the wood to show through on the surface. So it looks like wood, but it looks like blue wood, or it looks like red wood. Not that type of red wood, but you know, like it looks like it painted.
Phil (13:30.529) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (13:34.311) board, which is exactly what it is. If somebody's like, oh, want to paint this bed, and I want this bed to be gray. Cool. Why are you using wood? Make it out of composite plastic. I mean, there's a point where...
The material doesn't matter if you're putting that much color on it. So in my opinion does not matter if you paint white oak Go ahead and slap paint on it, but do yourself a favor and grab some Higher quality paint linseed paints fantastic. I think you could probably get the same thing with milk paint I think because the pigments very very fine
Phil (14:16.855) Like, yeah, and especially the like old school milk paint that you have to mix up, not like the acrylic pre-mixed stuff, because that's not, they call it milk paint just because of the look that you get from it, but it's not really true milk paint. because like old school milk paint is an exterior quality finish. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (14:22.918) What a yeah, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (14:31.568) Correct. Yeah. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (14:40.272) Yeah, yeah, you want this, the powdered stuff in a bag. So you don't want the pre-canned stuff. Yes, like I have zero issues with that. Do yourself a favor though, especially with it being an outdoor project. Partially outdoor project.
Phil (14:48.855) Right. I think the.
Logan Wittmer (14:58.918) Pre-finish the panels because those will absolutely without a doubt expand and contract and with a paint when you get a line around the edge of a panel it is going to be very noticeable.
Phil (15:15.063) Yeah. Yeah. I think there's another thing to consider when you're painting a project. And we've done it on projects here for the show. If we know that it's going to get painted within boundaries, you can. Well, we've did, we did a painted dining room table a few seasons ago and the base we made out of Alder. And then we decided to paint it.
Because of that, the specific grain pattern on the alder really didn't matter because it was going to get covered with paint. And alder is, when you sand it, is a real smooth finished surface. The pitfall here is that when you switch over to paint mode in your brain as a woodworker, it's really tempting to think like grain doesn't matter. But I think, especially in a front door,
Logan Wittmer (15:56.259) Mm-hmm.
Phil (16:12.417) You still want to be very selective on the parts that you're choosing. So like the big long styles, the vertical styles, those still need to be riffs on or quarter sawn pieces, even though you're going to paint it.
Logan Wittmer (16:29.987) Yeah, think still, regardless of the finish for an entry door, I think everything needs to be as chorus on as possible.
Phil (16:39.937) Yeah. You know, like panels can be a little flat sawn cause they're going to be captured in a groove or something like that. But your structural components need to be straight grain because you're going to minimize warping. I think, you know, if you've heard or read anything about white oak being terrible for paint and being outside is because it's probably some ratty flat sawn piece that is moving a lot in.
seasonal humidity and weather changes and is going to shed that that coating. But yeah, because I think, you know, like standard house paint on siding is fine because it's latex. But on a door, you know, it's, it's like putting it's like putting a latex exam glove on the wood, like it just and it's going to come off.
Logan Wittmer (17:16.473) Yeah. Yep.
Logan Wittmer (17:35.855) Yeah. Yep.
Phil (17:38.636) the same way that a latex exam glove is going to come off. It's just going to peel right off and it's going to look gross, which is where I think having something like the milk paint or the linseed oil paints that are, I don't know, seeing a little bit of a resurgence right now would be great because they're really designed for something outdoors.
Logan Wittmer (18:02.725) Yeah, there is another type of paint that I have seen recently in, I'm gonna say antique stores. Calling something like the brass armadillo in the antique store is a little weird because it's not all antiques. There's these little chic things that people are putting up. So let's call them flea markets.
Phil (18:23.362) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (18:25.101) I've seen people putting in their displays of what they're calling mineral paint, which I don't know exactly what that is, but they're calling it mineral paint. So I'm wondering if it isn't some form of mineral oil carrier. I don't know. I have no idea. But I don't know anything about that other than that it's there. Linseed or milk paint would be my first.
Phil (18:32.461) Huh, okay.
Logan Wittmer (18:53.742) Verse two, be warned, the Lindsay Pate, and we've said this before, the Lindsay Pate takes for a frickin' ever to dry. God, it takes forever. Like days. And you'll still end up with green all over your hands in your favorite T-shirt. Now, on the note of doors, I think I have to make another set of church doors. Not have to, but.
I think I'm making another set of these church stores that I did recently for a church a couple hours north of us. And they're paying for these ones. So part of me wonders, does it make sense to...
buy a Domino XL to do those. Basically take everything that I would make on that set of doors and just buy XL Domino. And the reason I am wondering is because I've heard a lot of people using the Domino XL for entry doors. No issues.
Phil (19:43.064) No.
Phil (19:57.175) Right. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (20:01.22) But working on this table for the same church, I did the front.
panel, framing panel of that out of dominoes and every time I just do that I'm like this is so stupid easy like it's just so easy and instead of going through all the headache of like routing super deep mortises in both parts you know like giant mortises making tenon stock doing all that stuff and do it so
Phil (20:37.516) Okay.
Phil (20:41.965) Considering you already have the Panto router.
Logan Wittmer (20:46.179) I know I don't need it
Phil (20:48.661) No, I'm just curious as to what the... because couldn't you...
3D print a template that would give you domino sized mortises
Logan Wittmer (21:02.923) Yeah, I honestly have. with the segment and tenon one, I could do that still. It's just more the fact that I'm going so deep, the bit's really grabby, and it does take quite a while to do them. That's more the issue. And the parts are so long, like, I don't... You absolutely can use the panto router for that. That's how I did the last one.
Phil (21:09.133) Okay.
Phil (21:17.859) I see. Yeah. Right.
Logan Wittmer (21:30.487) but those parts are so big and so long that I think that the table, it will handle them, but it's easy to get a little bit of a skew on it because it's tipping one way or another. If you're doing the mortises on the ends of one of the long styles, you know, you have seven foot hanging off one side of it. So everything has to be clamped down. You have to have a roller guide up there, all that jazz, you know.
Phil (21:55.713) Yeah, No, that's fair.
Logan Wittmer (21:56.61) Where it's like, okay, if I just leave it on the workbench and just plunge cut it, I don't know. Do I need it? Is it an excuse to buy it? I don't know, maybe. Is it any stronger? honestly, I don't even know how big of tenon you can do with a Domino XL.
Phil (22:07.265) Right. Yeah.
Phil (22:20.205) There, what is it like a 14 millimeter cutter on there is the big one.
Logan Wittmer (22:27.69) Maximum oh, oh wow the maximum tendon length for the domino XL is five and a half inches 14 14 millimeter diameter
Phil (22:35.404) Yeah.
two and three quarter. Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (22:40.342) Yeah, into each part. I mean, that's pretty good. That's a pretty meaty tenon.
Phil (22:48.227) Plus you have the option to, you know, on wide, wide rails to do two, two or more.
Logan Wittmer (22:55.074) Oh yeah, like, yeah, my, on the last doors, the top panel, I think I probably talked about this at Nausium, but like, the top panel, the top rail on each door is the wide panel.
So it's kind of opposite what you'd think. You'd think the bottom one would be the biggest, but the top one actually is. And I think on those I did three tenons on each that were four inches wide. So I did a bunch of them on there. So I don't know. mean.
Phil (23:22.444) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (23:32.363) Yeah.
Phil (23:33.613) Yeah. I mean, I've seen the same thing for folk making exterior doors, that it really simplifies the joinery part of it. Just because, as you were saying, many times those pieces are...
pretty thick and large, they're long pieces. So it's just a hassle to jig up for those. But if you can just more or less leave them on your bench, mark out center lines, know, so the setup is kind of pre-programmed into the tool. Yeah. That's fair.
Logan Wittmer (23:53.643) Mm-hmm.
Logan Wittmer (24:14.124) Yep. boy, it's expensive. I'm looking at it. she's pricey.
Hmm.
Logan Wittmer (24:32.544) So, I don't know, we'll see. I'm not 100 % sure that I'm doing that project yet. I feel like they said yes, but I'm not.
Phil (24:34.413) Okay.
Phil (24:43.725) Did they say yes, yes though? Is the right.
Phil (24:51.843) All right. Well, what else is new in popular woodworking land?
Logan Wittmer (24:56.001) Issue went to the printer last week, so that got sent off. That one is a Shea Alexander stool, Colin Knopf wall cabinet, a Willie Sandry drill press storage cabinet, and then...
I'm not even going to try to pronounce Laura's last name. Laura is from Norway, so she did an article on the Scandinavian skew chisel, which is a Scandinavian kind of fishtail carving chisel. Kind of a super versatile one. that is off to the printer. We are working on laying out the next issue now. Got a... What I am calling...
Phil (25:29.379) Yeah, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (25:41.376) and I know Brian probably is going to listen to this so I'm calling Brian DeYoung's Spice Chest a Harlem Space Chest because that's where he lives, Harlem, Georgia. So kind of a period piece, circa current period I guess.
Phil (25:53.923) All right.
Logan Wittmer (26:02.195) So that one is in there. have the Grizzly Maker Challenge winner, Haseeb. We are doing his floating top entry table. So that one is a mitered case, glued up, floating, I say floating top. There's a couple little standoffs under there that make the curved top. The curved top has a radial veneer and bent lamb edging on it.
and then the other project is already shot. a former editor of, I believe, Woodcraft Magazine, Chad
last name anyways he has a wall mounted kind of power tool cabinet kind of a standard like drill caddy style deal so that was a nice one because I have to go shoot it he's done this he's done he did his magazine for a long time so I knew he knew how to do his stuff so Chad McClung so
Phil (26:56.514) Okay.
Phil (27:15.381) yeah, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (27:17.673) can't remember if he was at Woodcraft or if he was at...
What was the other one? Rockler's Magazine? World Workers Journal. can't remember which one he was
Phil (27:26.013) Woodworkers Journal.
Phil (27:30.178) OK.
Phil (27:33.547) name is familiar. saw just recently your Jointer video bringing your MoAC back to life. That video went went live.
Logan Wittmer (27:40.445) Yeah.
Yeah, yep. Yeah, I was, kind of... So here's how we, here's how we work. Because we wear lots of different hats.
We, often times, have lots of irons in the fire. So, the...
We'll shoot a video like this joint or restoration video. It's like, got time scheduled with the video crew. Everybody's here. We're doing some video work in the shop. That goes off? Cool. Not on my plate anymore. I flush it out of my mind.
And then the next time I see it, it's a link from Nate, our video editor, that comes back and says, hey, here's the first draft. Let me know if you have any changes. So look at it. Cool. Looks great. Because I'm not in the business of making other people do more work than is necessary. So it's like, I'm always just like, send it, man. Like I'm good with it. If he makes me...
Phil (28:43.381) allow professionals to do their job.
Logan Wittmer (28:45.617) Yep, if he makes me look like an idiot, that's on me, that's not on him.
Phil (28:48.803) you
Logan Wittmer (28:52.991) But then I take that video and I send it off to Colin. Eric, finished video. Go ahead upload it to YouTube. Because he does all his back end, know, key wording and all that jazz, whatever. But then, inevitably, I get a message that says, hey, you got a thumbnail for this? It's like, well, crap. Nope, didn't think about that part of it. I'll get you one. And usually my texting to him saying I'll get you one is either when I'm on the road doing a photo shoot, I'm in the studio doing something.
So I forget about it. So like that video has been done for months now. Just has never...
had a thumbnail until yesterday. And then I took a couple thumbnails and I sent them to him and I'm like, Collin, here you go, this is what I got for you, man. Like this thing's really hard to shoot where it's at because it's so big and there's lots of crap around it. So I think he did, he's like, hey, nice try little buddy, but I'm just gonna grab a screenshot out of the video itself. So that's what we did.
So yeah, but now we're cranking along. I'm still working on this.
table for the church's candle table. I am building this for the magazine, not as a candle table though. So I'm going to shoot it in two, I'm going to shoot it not completely finished. I'm putting it in air quotes because the candle table obviously will have the secondary top on it that has a recess in it. But the sub top, if you don't put that raised pedestal on it, it's just an entry table. So I'm shooting it like that. I'll probably pause
Logan Wittmer (30:35.124) in a finished picture of the actual table. But as I'm looking at this, I'm like, you know what I didn't grab? So I grabbed, I don't know, 70 board feet of mahogany, which is the freaking nastiest wood to work with. And it's inevitable whenever I run into tension issues in stock, it's always in African mahogany.
first time I ever remember having like a bunch of tension built into a board was when I was building my screen door for my house. It was African mahogany and I I re-sawed a piece of 8 quarter and it was 8 foot long and by the time I got it apart putting the two ends together there was a foot in the middle that was not touching like there was that much tension in that lumber and that was seven years ago. This stuff as I'm cutting it you're just watching
everything move like ripping two inches off at the bandsaw it's like it's just it's crazy how much it's moving
But I heard 70 bt of it. I heard a quarter inch sheet of the mahogany ply Which is an MDF core? Then I was like well I don't really want to order the three-quarter MDF the three-quarter mahogany ply because I only need like a foot and a half by
60 inches of it. I don't need that much. And it's not like I'm gonna like I don't need to use it anywhere else inside of it and I'm not gonna a charge the church for that. I'm not going to you know just buy it. So I'm like what can I use like do I make the this is for the bottom of the inside of the cabinet. It's like do I need do I make that out of hardwood then I have to worry about expansion and contraction like all that crap. And then I'm in the I was in the shop the other day
Phil (32:03.459) Sure.
Logan Wittmer (32:31.865) And I'm like there is a off cut of a cherry plywood that Looks freaking identical and I was like I mark. What are you using this for? Nothing you need it take it get it out of here. So yep. All right, so I took it and I got it here and I stuck it inside of it You could not tell if this was cherry or mahogany plywood like it it worked out so great
Phil (32:42.455) Hahaha
Phil (32:57.357) Muggy.
Logan Wittmer (33:00.858) To be fair, this mahogany plywood is still that albino mahogany that we got that one time. It's still that stuff. It is very pale. I figure it's getting a stain and it's on the inside of the cabinet on the bass, so even if it was slightly different, you'd never notice. You'd never notice. So the bass is...
Phil (33:06.691) yeah, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (33:23.052) all ready to assemble. I have end panels glued up with rabbets cut along the length to hold the front back frames. The front back frames are done.
glued cleats on the inside for that base to sit on, the bottom of it to sit on. What my next thing is, I'm gonna pre-stain the inside because the entire cabinet's getting stained. It's getting stained rich mahogany from old masters, case you're wondering. I don't wanna be inside of this cabinet trying to stain it. So I'm gonna stain the panels while they're flat, unglued, and then glue it together.
I'm actually going to use screws along the outside through the end panels into the front and back panels because there's appliques of like pillar type appliques that get added on the corners. So it's going to cover up the screws. So it's going work out great. And on that note, I...
Phil (34:21.283) Okay. nice.
Logan Wittmer (34:28.6) ordered myself a box of a thousand screws from McFeely's. This is where my job kind of starts to get expensive because like we'll do stuff like, I shot some sponsored video for McFeely's, right? This is not a sponsored portion of this podcast, just a heads up. But we did some, I did some,
Phil (34:33.504) Okay.
Logan Wittmer (34:52.518) video on McFeely's screws, their online screw dealer, and they sent me some of their, what they call their Pro Max screws. And I fell in frickin' love with them. And you would think like, okay, their screws dummy, like how big a difference are they? Here's what I like about these things. The threaded portion is, like look how short the threaded portion is on that. Like.
Phil (35:19.193) wow, okay.
Logan Wittmer (35:21.282) You have.
only a third of that entire screw length that's threaded. So they suck pieces together really easily. You don't get that, they call it board jacking when you get a thread trapped in between your two parts. And then no matter how much you drive the screw, those two pieces won't go together. It's because there's a thread stuck in there. So the idea behind these screws, they actually sell these as deck screws of all things. But the idea is that only the threaded
Phil (35:40.897) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (35:52.605) portion is going into the thread person is only going into what you are attaching down to so I freaking fell in love with these screws so I ordered I ran through all the ones that they sent me for video because obviously I got to test them thoroughly I ordered a box of a thousand and I want to say it was like 48 bucks which
more expensive than going and picking up like spacks at the hardware store I think but they just I mean they're just so much nicer to use so yeah that was that was the these are what I'm using to attach everything on this table it takes an absolute woodworking nerd to get excited about screws like this
Phil (36:42.347) Okay, I'll put a...
Phil (36:47.681) Right. I'll put a photo and a link on the show notes page so you can take a look at what those all are. Cool.
Logan Wittmer (36:56.665) Yeah.
Phil (36:58.445) I mean, that definitely is an advantage of the things that we do around here of being able to try out a variety of different fasteners in all kinds of configurations. awesome.
Logan Wittmer (37:05.156) Mm-hmm.
Logan Wittmer (37:13.006) Yeah, I mean, and don't get me wrong. Like I think there's some fasteners I buy at Menards that I absolutely love, but for like certain applications. I, well, you saw my saw buck that I put out in the front yard for getting up firewood. I use these giant Spax leg screws that we, they're the same ones actually that we used. What did we build?
We built something on the TV show and John had bought these like stainless steel spax leg screws. Was it like the outdoor planter or?
Phil (37:46.819) yeah.
Yeah, or was it the, that bar that we did?
Logan Wittmer (37:55.802) Might have been the bar, but they have like a huge washer head on them. They're like a T30 drive bit, like they're giant. The box of 50 of them is, it depends on the length you get, but like I think the box of 50 was like 15 bucks.
They are, in my opinion, way better than buying a leg screw or a leg bolt, I guess, because you can just drive them with your impact driver. I freaking love those things. I use them all the time. They're like a plus-sized cabinet screw, cabinet hanging screw.
Phil (38:19.98) Right.
Phil (38:27.629) Yeah.
Phil (38:36.203) Right. Cause a lot of times, what do they call them? Like a construction screw or something like that. But yeah, I think that was one of my epiphanies around here is having some people like Chris Fitch or one of our previous designers, Kent Welsh had done a bunch of stuff for outdoor use and had talked about these screws and how they basically never use lags anymore because
Logan Wittmer (38:39.979) Yeah, something like that.
Phil (39:03.125) the legs end up being too finicky. And a lot of times the steel in them is so soft that when you get to certain lengths, they'll snap or the head will round over and you just can't work at them.
Logan Wittmer (39:17.751) Yeah, especially if they are stainless steel, which I mean, a lot of them are outdoor. So I stand corrected. These are not SPACs. These are GRK brand. But these are the ones that I bought and were using. Structural screws, but like they are...
Phil (39:20.972) Yeah.
Phil (39:28.462) yeah, yeah.
Phil (39:32.373) Structural screws, that's the word.
Logan Wittmer (39:37.53) Actually, I had some bigger ones out there for my saw buck, but I mean they are just, you know, these like nasty looking giant screws with, you know, this is a, these are what T25 head on them. They are Uber grade. I don't know what that means, but it sounds German.
Phil (39:57.73) Mmm.
Logan Wittmer (40:00.929) I love them. like, I'm looking at like doing my outfeed table here in the next couple of months. And initially I was gonna just, you know, tenon it together with the pants or router or whatever. And I still might do that, but I'm like, you know, it'd be kind of cool to be to do tenons and then just run these in instead of glue. So it'd kind of be like a knockdown style if you wanted.
Not that you want to be driving those screws in and out for something like that, but yeah, I agree. Using those on projects depends on the project. And some of them are painted black. This one's obviously, these ones are...
Phil (40:44.995) It's like an outdoor coated bronze sort of color.
Logan Wittmer (40:45.465) true. Yeah, like yeah, galvanized or something. I mean, not galvanized, but yeah, they're plated. Actually, my workbench that I finished, know, those bolts holding the end cap on, those are, it's these, except they are black and they're five and a half inches long and five sixteenths thick. So diameter, so yeah.
Phil (41:01.986) Right.
Phil (41:08.375) Yeah. Yeah, now that you say that, I think that's what I used on my workbench when I did it on video here, is attach the end caps with those GRK screws. Yeah, and they're just lovely to use.
Logan Wittmer (41:15.224) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (41:27.289) Yeah, it's funny because I, people I think go through this phase in their woodworking where they're like, I want to build this with zero fasteners. And I'm like, sometimes I'm like, but fasteners is the better way to do that.
Phil (41:48.919) Yeah.
Logan Wittmer (41:50.968) So, you know, was when I was down with Haseeb in Atlanta shooting the Grizzly Maker Challenge, I don't remember exactly what it was, but something came up where I'm like, hey, you know, I'm not questioning you, but I'm interested academically. I'm interested in why you chose to do it this way. He's like, well, just, did, he said, I don't want to use fasteners. I'm like, oh, I mean, okay, cool. So.
Phil (42:21.058) All right. Yeah, I was in my work on the desk project that I want to do here is was trying to decide what my joinery techniques were going to be. And looking around some of the projects that I've built in the past and the kind of look that I want, I think I'm going to do just a lot of
It's just going to be kind of your standard dados and grooves. then like my tool cabinet in my shop, I reinforced the dado joinery with, Rott head nails. And I just love that look. And I think it would match kind of the vibe that I'm going for on this desk. And so, yeah, I, I love being able to use kind of an interesting fastener.
when it suits the project. Like I think that enhances the project even more.
Logan Wittmer (43:17.183) Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. was, uh, I just saw on. I don't remember if was Shay Alexander's Facebook or Instagram or his.
brother or somebody posted into their business account, but his one brother does blacksmithing and he had somebody had posted a picture of like it was a little display board of all these head styles of like screws or I mean those all forged so they're all forged head styles on screws nails and they're like you know hey here's some of the you know for our commission work here's some of the custom head styles available for you know basically bulky hardware whether it's
It's nails, screws, something like that. And then it was like, or, you know, these can be used as drawer pulls. I'm like, like, yeah, absolutely. Like they're, they were big enough that they could be. And yeah, it's, those types of things that I really like. And it was, who did we have out to do some video with us several years back? Was it, was it Horton? Was it, or was it Horton? It might've been Horton.
Phil (44:03.83) Yeah.
Phil (44:16.161) Yeah.
Phil (44:30.634) I think it was Horton Brasses, yeah.
Logan Wittmer (44:31.883) was it Horton? And they said, yeah, we kind of do that little short run stuff occasionally for people that need something. So it's that type of thing that takes a project and makes it a little nicer. Like, hey, put some custom hardware on it, or make your hardware, or...
go buy standard brass hardware and get some chemicals and play around with that or patina it or texture it or something.
Phil (45:01.722) Right. Yeah. I think there are a lot of options that we just don't consider because you just think you're picking something out of a catalog and then that's your look that you have to stick to. I, again, because of the people that we work with around here where they're like, no, you fire it with a torch and you get a super cool look to it. And you're like, yeah, you do. I'm doing that. Cause when Chris did.
Logan Wittmer (45:23.486) Yep. Yep, that's how we do this.
Phil (45:30.55) I mean, he did it with a marking knife project for shop notes where it was a wood handle. And then he did like copper ferrules at the top and bottom. And then he had, I hate to use the word sharpened, but ground a point on the end of a carriage bolt, but it was rounded. wasn't really like a sharp point. And then basically just dimpled the copper ferrule.
And then he had different oils that he brushed on the copper and then torched it. And the different oils gave resulted in slightly different colors. So you had like this caramel color look or something that was a leaned a little bit more green or like a darker oxidized color and just amazing.
Phil (46:24.256) All right. There you go. think that wraps up another episode of the shop notes podcast. we want to hear from you. Any questions, comments, or smart remarks. can send that as an email, woodsmith at woodsmith.com or leave a comment on our YouTube page. Also great. If you can leave five star reviews and comments on your podcast provider helps other woodworkers find the show and extends our reach. Thank you. Also.
to the readers and subscribers to Woodsmith and Popular Woodworking. We'll see you next week everybody. Bye.
